Hello Everyone!
Welcome to our Blogspot for Week 5.
Please share your observations about these readings, as
well as your thoughts about what these readings mean in the context of holistic
sustainability.
Readings for Week 5
Ishmael: Beginning thru Chapter 6
Blog Post Project Instructions
You will write to this Blogspot weekly for 14 weeks
(1-September – 1-December). For the first part of your contribution, you will
write a short quotation from the week’s reading, or from the book on which you
are writing your report, and include with the quotation the page number
indicated or in the case of a video, include the minute/second point at which
the quote can be found. Along with your quote, pose a question, comment, or
challenge pertaining to the quotation.
For the
second part of your blog contribution you will respond to another student’s
question, comment, or challenge about the quote that they posted. Your response
to another’s question, comment, or challenge must be a minimum of 100
words.
Students
are strongly encouraged to read and respond to other students’ submissions in a
timely manner. Late submissions, submissions less than 100 words or lacking
substance, and submissions not appropriately submitted (for example sent to
CANVAS rather than to the Blogspot) will not receive credit.
There are no make-ups for online submissions, so submit yours early to ensure that a late developing event (e.g. illness, family emergency, etc.) does not prevent you from receiving credit.
Your initial post as well as your 100-plus word response to
a fellow student’s question, comment, or challenge is due each
Thursday by 12-noon, September 1-December 1. Your blog posts,
initial and response, are worth 5 points each for a total of 70 points.
"There's nothing fundamentally wrong with people. Given a story to enact that puts them in accord with the world, they will live in accord with the world. But given a story to enact that puts them at odds with the world, as yours does, they will live at odds with the world. Given a story to enact in which they are the lords of the world, they will act like lords of the world. And, given a story to enact in which the world is a foe to be conquered, they will conquer it like a foe, and one day, inevitably, their foe will lie bleeding to death at their feet, as the world is now." Ishmael, page 84. This is a very deep section in which I think Ishmael criticize religion and capitalism, he speaks of the Adam and Eve story in another part of the book that tells us that all humans are doomed to sin and death, which puts us at odds with the world, and capitalism who’s roots tell us to use our resources to make profit or gain power which makes the world seem as it needs to be concurred and exploited. So these two ideas that the majority of humanity holds, is the cause of most of our problems now especially when it comes to unsustainable practices that overconsume the earth’s resources. Mother earth is bleeding in front of us why can’t we stop and help her instead of making excuses? And is holistic sustainability going to be this outreached hand that helps the earth in her time of need or will it be the complete demise of humanity that gives earth the time to heal?
ReplyDeleteAndree, very interesting quote, and great analysis. It's undoubtedly true that such a pessimistic outlook on life, that "humans are doomed to death and sin", would only increase the helpless feeling that many of us have when it comes to issues as large as trying to saving the world. It's interesting to think that with this kind of belief from the very essence of human-kind, there is this inherent loss of human dignity. At least according to the most widely known and believed story of creation in the world. This isn't even to touch on the other inherent incompatibility that exists between capitalism and sustainability. The very processes of reducing, reusing, and re-purposing are detrimental to the most coveted aspects of capitalism such as GDP and bottom-lines. Sustainability in such a society is ultimately marginalized and limited to symbolic gestures. However, we do live in a democracy and if we can persuade enough people to see why this is such an important issue, and bolster their human dignity so that change actually seems within reach. Then, we really can have the positive influence that we all crave.
DeleteGreat point! I do agree wholeheartedly that our society fuels the idea that we, as consumers and producers, have the ultimate right to use and abuse the earth’s abundance of resources. We use a religious basis for the most part to justify the idea that the earth was created for man and consequently its resources were created for our consumption. Daniel Quinn points out that as humans we are simply acting in a story in which we are to defeat the earth in order to place ourselves at the top of the power hierarchy. In order to expand our minds beyond the sheltered idea that we are the pinnacle of creation, we must consider our presence in the timeline of the existence of earth. Mankind, and even more focused—modern agricultural practices and societal order—have only been around for a microscopic portion of the history of existence.
DeleteI think that you have some great points, however I don't think that religion was "created" as an excuse. It was my interpretation that these ideals were created out of true beliefs that have been distorted into the idea that we can go around destroying things without any regard to how our actions may affect the other creatures on the earth. I agree that we as people need to stop making excuses for our poor decisions and realize that this can not continue if we want the world to have time to recuperate and restore its resources.
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ReplyDelete“The mythology of your culture hums in your ears so constantly that no one pays the slightest bit of attention to it. Of course man is conquering space and the atom and the deserts and the oceans and the elements. According to your mythology, this is what he was born to do.”(Page 74) People are so absorbed in to their culture and society that they subconsciously tend to filter it all out by the time it comes to conscious thought. These are the most fundamental and thus influential aspects of all of us and they are invisible, and it's only by stepping back and looking at our culture from an unbiased perspective that we are able to even understand why things are the way they are. Our evolutionary desires of manifest destiny and overall domination of our environment are only encouraged by our most fundamental practices and beliefs; greed, endless-competition, self-superiority. People can easily become afraid to criticize these beliefs which are so widely cherished, but no idea should be above scrutiny. It's this blindness towards what is so obviously detrimental to human well-being, whether intentional or not, that is really making life only more difficult than it needs to be. How do we have these taboo conversations which are so vital to our well-being, without being ostracized by the over-reaching politically-correct rhetoric?
ReplyDeleteI noticed that people have a very difficult time talking about how little control humanity has of the world and that most of our problems are the result of other trying to escape this "fear master" of death. I want money, power, and resources so I can live a better life before i die, but is that the key to a better life? Most likely it isn't going to make life better above a sustainable level to survive. The only way to start these discussions is not to just be negative because then like Ishmael former students people will only become depressed but if ignored then the issue goes unresolved as well. Knowledge of the issues as well as the creativity and motivation to make a change is what is needed to start.
DeleteI think what the quote is talking about is the extreme ethnocentrism we human beings as a species have. Because we managed to lead the race in the survival of the fittest, because we've advanced so much, because we are so radically different than other living things in how we think, act and behave, we believe that it entitles us to certain privileges in this world. Like the quote said, according to our "mythology" we are supposed to be out there, taming the natural world, further advancing in the race and showing our superiority. But to who? The animals and plants surely don't care, in fact, they'd probably appreciate if we stopped all together. In the end, the only ones we're competing with is ourselves.
Delete“With man gone, will there be hope for gorilla?”
ReplyDeletePersonally, this quote being concise and to the point seems like an underdeveloped idea upon first read, but the implicit idea that the survival of another species is dependent on human existence is a very developed and intricate claim. The first interpretation of this idea which should be explored is whether Daniel Quinn is implying that the gorilla species will only thrive in the absence of humans. The second interpretation of this idea is that the gorilla species depends on the manipulation of nature fueled by anthropocentric ideals. Also, in what context would one need to consider the extinction of the entire human race?
Brooke,
DeleteThis quote also stood out to me. When first reading it one is prone to think that either the gorilla will flourish or the gorilla will become extinct without man. After the author states that this sentence has two meanings is when we finally realize that there is another concept. Upon reading it, I originally thought that without man the gorilla would become extinct. Now analyzing this sentence I’m more disposed to thinking that without man gorillas would thrive. A better habitat, and less threat from humans is what the gorilla would receive. The extinction of mankind is a hard concept to grasp, and one we don’t want to. Like the fear method people would rather stay oblivious to what is happening then to recognize it and fix the problem. However, with how we continue to treat the environment this idea of extinction is something we need to come to term with sooner rather then later. I think everyone needs to start thinking of ways to be more conservative, to use less, and want less, because there are a finite amount of resources available for our use, and we are already seeing the effect of overuse.
If humans were to go extinct, I think the ecosystem would recuperate and thrive. Domesticated animals would be negatively affected by the collapse of the human race, but most wildlife and animals would be better off. Humans are the main drivers of actions such as deforestation, hunting, and oil spills which kill hundreds of species at a time.
DeleteI think Quinn does mean that the gorilla species would be better off without humans. From Ishmael’s perspective it is pretty clear that a gorilla has a better quality of life in the wild as opposed to in captivity. The same can be said for countless other animals who have been taken out of the wild and put under human control. For example, Orcas are subject to depressing living conditions just for the sake of human profit and entertainment. It is sad to say, but I think most other living beings would ultimately benefit from human extinction. That is, unless we change our ways and make active, powerful efforts to change society and live harmoniously with the environment.
This quote is very interesting because at first sight it forces an idea upon us that our society rarely considers. The idea is that the Earth would probably better off without humans inhabiting it. Strictly from a biodiversity and ecological view, so far humans have been terrible for the Earth. We tend to think of the Earth and all the resources on it as inherently ours. From this mythological perspective, it would be contradictory to ever consider what the quote implies because we feel above the "anarchy" of the wild when in reality our disregard for our home shows we are more anarchic than we want to admit. Trading economic growth for the well-being of future generations, we have become so egocentric that we no longer think outside the boundaries of our own lifetimes.
DeleteIshmael (pg.12)“If gorillas were capable of such an expression, they would tell you that their family is like a hand, of which they are the fingers. They are fully aware of being a family but are very little aware of being individuals. Here in the Zoo there were other gorillas- but there was no family. Five severed fingers do not make a hand.”
ReplyDeleteI re-read and re-read this quote because I think it is said in the most profound way. Animals that are taken out of their homes and separated from families for our “enjoyment” is a gross misuse of power. This quote embodies how animals put family over individuals and shows how opposite man thinks. Zoos are imprisonments for animals but growing up, that is not what anyone thinks. They make it look like these animals are enjoying their captive lives and animal conservation and rehabilitation is the main goals of the zoos but the stark reality, as emphasized with Ishmael is money is the main focus. When these animals stop making money they are sold to the highest bidder or put to sleep. In the context of holistic sustainability I think leaving these animals in their natural habitat with their family is what we are striving for. We need to protect animals, and the habitat they embody, for a better ecosystem that we all live in.
Kelly,
DeleteThis quote was also the quote that stood out to me the most, but in a different way. From the perspective of sustainability, there may be many people interested in sustainability but if there is no connection between all the groups our efforts for a sustainable society cannot and will not be achieved. In today's world it seems like many people and organizations are working as parts of a severed hand rather than as a whole. An act of unity or formation between society and the groups of sustainability must be made to further advance sustainability because our current separated state only further hinders our potential to achieve.
"People talk about the destruction of the ozone layer and the death of all life. They talk about the devastation of the rain forests, about deadly pollution that will be with us for thousands and millions of years, about the disappearance of dozens of species of life everyday, about the end of speciation itself. And they seem perfectly calm." -Ismael ( Ch 2, pg 44 )
ReplyDeleteMaybe the reason why that some people merely talk about these controversial issues is that they feel as if they don't have any way to take action, or that it just isn't their responsibility. Maybe they feel as if they are just simply powerless to reverse the effects of human modernization and industrialization. I can see how it would be very tough for an average person to just go outside and tell someone how they can solve this problem without any qualifications. Luckily, it has been years since this book was written. The advancement of the internet has it made it possible to find volunteers groups who are trying to clean up pollution and to access more knowledge about the ongoing state of the world. People can actually go find a group and do some good and bring SOMETHING to the table. Those who are truly concerned are not seemingly calm. they just don't have a way of having the ability to help. A lot of others think that this type of thing is just not their business, but on the contrary, it's all of our business.
Wei, you are entirely correct. We all live on this planet and depend on it to survive. With that in mind, we have a responsibility to make sure that we don’t destroy it, that it may be there for generations to come. Recently, there have been many more ways in which one can make a difference. Those who are concerned now have ways to solve the problems that have existed for years and there is no excuse for those who may refuse to do anything. As you said, it’s all of our business, not just to solve problems, but to protect and preserve our world.
DeleteWhat you have brought up here is a real issue in our world. What makes us humans is our ability to come together to accomplish as one and work for a common good. No other species on the planet has this ability. With that being said, we are perfectly able to stop the degradation of our planet, yet we are still sitting back and acting as though it is not an issue. The reality is however, that we are greatly endangering the Earth and every form of life upon it. If we can gather together the human race and convince everyone that this truly is a threatening problem, then perhaps we can save ourselves. The only way to accomplish change is through the collective effort of the entire human population
DeleteI also agree with your statement. I believe that the way people are able to talk so campy about these issues is their distance from the issue itself. The decreasing rain forests is a serious issue that is regularly discussed, but I feel as though those discussing it don't quite know the global implications of the destruction and therefore don't find themselves responsible for fixing the problem-the "it doesn't affect me, so it's not my responsibility" attitude. Additionally, for a problem such as this, the idea of trying to stop deforestation can be daunting for one person, especially if they live thousands of miles away. However, like you said, social media has allowed for great strides to be made in forming issue-related groups that can affect change in larger numbers.
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ReplyDelete“If you can’t discover what’s keeping you in, the will to get out soon becomes confused and ineffectual.” – (Ishmael, page 25)
ReplyDeleteAs Ishmael pointed out, we are all trapped by what many can call stubbornness (not wanting to change our ways) or a lack of knowledge (not knowing how to change). All we know is that the result is a cycle of destruction. No one wants to destroy what we have, but we’ve fallen into a snare, created by ourselves, and therefore must do so to survive as a species. The idea of captivity can no longer pertain to animals in a zoo, but humans as well as a result of social/cultural system that demands we do certain things to thrive, such as the destruction of our world through certain actions. How do you guys feel about this captivity? We have the ability to leave these actions that damage the world behind. However, why do you feel that we don’t? Do you think that there is something we lack or fear that holds us back and can it be overcome?
Hi Phil,
DeleteThe quote you picked harbors a great deal of truth about humankind. We are, by nature, self-interested creatures. This often leads to us being stubborn and unwilling to change our ways. Partnered with our lack of education or knowledge on how to change, this makes for bad news for the environment and the concept of sustainability. I agree with what you said about a cycle of destruction because the way our buildings, cars, lifestyles, etc. have been designed has mired us in a never-ending cycle of abusing our resources and harming the environment. I do believe that no one truly wants the Earth to be rendered barren by our actions and that we are to some degree trapped. But I do not believe that we cannot escape this snare. With the proper education and efforts put into living a more sustainable lifestyle, we can break out of this “captivity” and learn how to thrive in a way that maintains the well-being of the Earth. The only things that are holding us back are a lack of education and a lack of the will to change our ways. As humans, we are often resistant to change and breaking patterns. However, this is crucial so that we can seek education and new methods of transportation, construction, and resource-use and save our planet from destruction.
Phil,
DeleteYou struck up a few intricate questions, none of which can be easily answered, but are good for thought. I do agree with you that much of mankind has become mentally stagnant in their ways of operating. Nevertheless, humans often perceive themselves as living free, beyond captivity. Thinking, we are not animals; we are humans. Ironically, human captivity has become much more dynamic than animal captivity. We do not live behind physical bars; the bars live within us. Simply put, our resistance to change our unsustainable lifestyles roots from our internal fear that our luxuries may slip away, that we are in fact mortal.
“Man’s destiny was to conquer and rule the world...He hasn’t quite made it, and it looks as though this may be his undoing.” (Ishmael, page 80)
ReplyDeleteI found this quote quite intriguing because the idea of destiny is rampant throughout our culture. The idea of destiny also relates well to today’s presentation in class. Alex discussed the idea of finding our passion or destiny in life and the various steps it may take to get there and that a formula cannot determine what or who we should be. This quote explains that man’s destiny on earth is to conquer and rule it, a concept that we have adopted since the beginning of humankind. Man has taken control of the Earth, destroying wildlife and utilizing natural resources as if they are our own. We have not yet completely dominated the earth, as the quote mentions, because there are still forests to raze and species to extinguish, a goal that we are unknowingly working towards. This quest for control, however, is destroying the planet on which we live. In this, we are securing our own fate and undoing and harming the well-being of future generations. Do you think we are contributing to our own undoing?
I really enjoyed this quote as well. I have always had a problem with the thought that everything we are doing is so destructive. People always say it is just “the way things are” and I never felt that was right. This book and this quote in particular has given me some insight about how and why we might do the destructive things we do. We have come to think that the earth was provided for us and that its resources are ours for the taking, but that is not fair to all the other forms of life inhabiting this earth along with us. Not only is mankind trying to dominate and rule the world, each human is also trying to dominate his or her own life. We act selfishly together as mankind because each man himself tends to act selfishly, due to fear and having a scarcity-mind. I definitely think we are contributing to our own undoing, and I think many people would be helped if they really understood how flawed this story we have been told over and over again truly is. More people need to realize that everything is the way it is because we have created it to be that way and that things can actually change.
DeleteNatalie
DeleteI also found this quote to be intriguing, I actually wrote my post about a similar quote. I will say I have to disagree with the quote a little; I do think that humans have succeeded in subjugating the world and its resources simply because there is not a part of the globe that does not feel the effects of our existence. Although we have no physically destroyed every single habitat and ecosystem, I think we are past the point of conquer. However this can be seen as something positive because many people, especially in our generation understand the implications of conquering the land and are seeking out ways to undo the harm or potential risks. To answer your question we are without a doubt destroying ourselves and the degradation of the planet may in fact be our downfall.
I think we are most definitely contributing to our own undoing. Humankind's desire to conquer and control all things has lead to more and more unstable global environmental conditions. To conquer something can have a variety of connotations, one of the strongest being that of complete submission by the conquered. However, the world does not work that way. While humans have managed to control much of the environment around them to use it for their own profit, we are connected in a delicate balance with the planet we live on, and upsetting this has potential dire and disastrous effects. By creating an unsustainable environment, we are basically signing up for our own demise by not allowing enough resources in finite quantities to remain for our posterity.
Delete"You call yourselves civilized and all the rest primitive." - Ishmael p. 39. I believe that this is possibly the biggest flaw of the human mind. For some reason, we as people feel that we are superior than and deserve more than the other forms of life on Earth. The fact is, however, that humans make up only a small fraction of life in the world, but our actions affect the entirety of the living world. This is clearly unfair, we are no more deserving than the leaves above us or the grass below us. The mindset that humans are superior beings has led to the degradation of the Earth and all that lives on it. How can we achieve the mindset that we are equal?
ReplyDeleteI agree with you in that human beings feel very entitled; with this knowledge, convincing other humans that they are no more important than other organisms is a difficult notion. I fear that as long as people are on this planet and are using the resources that seem infinite to the naked eye, this sense of entitlement will continue. However, once resources become obviously and undeniably depleted, people will take notice. Only when one’s child starts getting sick because the planet can no longer support the agriculture that provided that child with necessary nutrients will people begin to realize that there is a limit. Once they realize this, they will understand that, for future generations, the planet’s wellbeing is just as important as theirs.
DeleteHey Zach!,
DeleteSo I completely agree with you. As humans, we feel like we are the kings of the world. Actually the book kind of says Earth was made for us to rule, but it defiantly wasn’t made for us to destroy. If we feel so superior, you think we’d control everything else not hurt it. Everything we do trickles down to the bottom level of our oddly leveled society. Humans don’t think through their actions completely. Its incredible unfair to the poor creatures doing nothing but replenishing the world. We will probably never completely get an equal mindset, which is sad. I don’t think I’m better than what is providing me with life, but some people naturally hold themselves higher than everyone and everything. It’s going to take a HUGE environmental shock before some people care enough.
I agree with you tenfold. The misconception of human superiority has created an extreme disconnect not only with each other, but also with the world around us. The misconception lies in our inability to connect the dots and see that we are truly one. We all originate from the same energy source and are collectively sharing Earth as our current life source. It is an absurd notion to think that this planet evolved over millions of years just to be willingly depleted and exploited by its’ children. It is also absurd for one being to claim dominance over another living being. We, as a species, have a history of manipulating our environment to best fit our personal, selfish needs. This is extremely apparent in the meat industry, promoting that the preference of one human is more important than the lives of thousands of other living beings. But yet, we do not stop to question the primitive nature of animal slaughter since we are a “civilized” species, right? To achieve a new widespread mindset that we are all equal, we need to break down the individual egos we’ve created. We need to revert back to our roots and interact with nature, instead of interfering with it. If we align our natural energy flow back with Mother Earths’, the rest will fall into place.
Delete"During the children's revolt of the sixties and seventies, I was just old enough to understand what there kids had in mind - they meant to turn the world upside down - and just young enough to believe they might actually succeed." Ishmael, p.2
ReplyDeleteThis is an interesting quote because it really touches on a common perspective people tend to obtain as they get older. While we're young, we have a spark within us that makes us feel as if anything is possible, much like the kids being references in this quote. But as people age, it seems, they are exposed to failure and fear which puts a damper on their spirits. As addressed in class on Tuesday, an important skill is being able to conquer fear. This skill allow you to help others conquer theirs as well. Once these fears and doubts have been overcome, people can get things done. This plays a large role in holistic sustainability, because without the belief that you as an individual can accomplish something, there will be no hope in trying. Do you agree that as people age they tend to lose their spark for change? Do you think you have that spark, or do you think it is simply an assumption saying that young people tend to be more passionate in this sense?
Kyrstin,
DeleteI think you make a great point, I have also noticed that as people age they tend to lose their “spark” or passion that they once had when they were younger in most aspects of life at least. As we age we do face failure, and let downs which ultimately can “extinguish” our spark that might have been strong when we were younger. I believe that most children are fearless and have a great passion because they have never experienced failure or fear. I know as a child I was not afraid of anything because I didn’t know what danger existed in the world. However, I also think that if people are very passionate about a topic this passion can stay with them their whole life, so much that their prior failures drive them to stick with their beliefs and persevere on.
Hali McKinley Lester
DeleteI think you bring up a very important point. Children definitely have a great deal of curiosity with a fascination about the wonders of the world. I’ve been a baby sitter for many years, and I find that children are constantly asking “why?” or wanting to touch things with a look of wonder in their eyes. Yet, as we grow up, our curiosity is discouraged; adults get fed up with so many questions and the education system teaches facts for standardized testing, instead of encouraging creative thinking. This is a serious problem for sustainability because we need creative solutions to the problems we face. We also need to appreciate and marvel at the natural beauty of our world, for that will motivate us to protect it. Luckily, there are adults who realize the importance of encouraging children to maintain their spark, so there are still people who have a great hope that they can, if not save the world, at least make a small positive change. I think there is a great divide in our generation of those who are passionate about changing the world and those who are very passive about their impact on the world. Yet, I have great hope that our generation can spark change in sustainability, for if we all believe in the cause, we can begin to change our story, as Ishmael encourages us to consider.
Kyrstin,
DeleteI think that you make a very interesting point as well. When we are younger we usually do see the world as this gigantic bundle of opportunity and happiness which progressively fades as we age. However, I do not believe that this is why we don’t actively pursue change. Yes, as we get older we face failure and disappointment, but I believe those failures only make one’s drive increase because we seek success. I hate to mention that cliché, but “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.” We learn from those mistakes and become more aware of the world we live in. When we are young we have this mindset that anything is possible, and in a way we are very ignorant of how the world works. Facing those mistakes and failures brings us closer to the reality that things take effort and we occasionally will fail. It is up to us as individuals to acknowledge this and continue to follow our passions.
I know that I personally feel more driven when I am faced with defeat. It makes me want to prove that I can accomplish whatever I put my mind to.
Kyrstin,
DeletePersonally, I have seen people, some of whom I'm very close to, that used to have a spark so bright I thought it would combust into flames at any second. That spark this person had kindled one in me, and it's grown into a fire that I feel will push me farther than anyone could dream. But I've seen this person's motivation and confidence constantly beat down, trampled on, and extinguished until their spark was snuffed out. I've come to believe that it isn't age or growing up that makes people lose their passion, but it's being told that their passions aren't good enough, or unrealistic, or out of reach that makes the fire die. Trying to rekindle this person's fire has been the toughest thing, and it's a concurrent struggle. It probably doesn't matter what kind of spark you have, if enough people try to put it out, eventually they just might, and they don't truly know the consequences of stepping on someone else's fire. Unfortunately, this is what I've learned about this.
“ Im saying that the price you’ve paid is not the price of becoming human. It’s not even the price of having the things you just mentioned. It’s the price of enacting a story that casts man-kind as the enemy of the world.” – Ishamel pg 75, chp 4
ReplyDeleteThis quote is really powerful. People, including me, constantly blame all the problems of the world on us being selfish, on us taking what we need. Us taking more than we need is the problem. We never needed indoor plumbing, I mean it’s really nice and I don’t know how I’d react if it was taken from me, but if it was never an option I’d be fine with natural baths and all the great joys of the past. We took more than we needed, which still was okay, but then we took even more. People made cars, cars make gas off puts, gas off puts make pollution. Look around campus, I walk everywhere, Tyler B. seems to skateboard, Rosy rides her bike, but who scoots? Scooters aren’t the enemy of the world, but they are a play in some pollution. UF has plenty of scooter riders, but why do we need scooter. Why are harming the world and becoming the enemy? If there is a way to get around that doesn’t cost the environment, why do we not use it. We are taking too much, we’re playing out the story as the enemy. Playing out the story as the murderer, and honestly, not too many people seem to care. Relating it to the quote, were paying the price of being the enemy, were paying the price of destroying it all. Maybe I took it wrong, maybe I’m wrong, but what do you guys think?
Good morning Courtney! I would have to say everything you are saying is quite true, even if people realize they are harming the environment they put it in the back of their mind. For most people in the world they are thinking about their own convenience, they aren't thinking beyond themselves. Many times there are alternative ways to travel such as riding a bike or taking the public bus but riding in a car is quicker and easier. Again this would make us all selfish beings because we are putting our needs above others. We are making our lives easier, while destroying the world for future generations.
Delete"The thing I most wanted to do in the world was... to find a teacher. That's right. I imagined I wanted a teacher- needed a teacher. To show me how one goes about doing something that might be called... saving the world."- Ishmael pg. 4
ReplyDeleteHello everyone! Right off the bat after starting Ishmael, I found the whole section (pg. 4) quite intriguing. The paragraph is all about saving the world. As sustainability advocates I feel we all have a part in ourselves that wants to save the world, or at least make some bit of a difference. We want to leave our marks on the world, knowing we played a role to make the world better for future generations. Weather or not we realize it now; I feel with the path we have chosen we are going to be teachers for the people around us. It is our job to teach our fellow humans the value sustainability holds in our society. As Alexa said in the guest lecture, it is our job to teach the world that sustainability is so much more than just environmental science; it is connected to almost every part of life. Coming into sustainability studies this fall I had no idea how enriching and well rounded the program would be, it connects many different systems far beyond just environmental science. Do you guys also feel that sustainability is misconceived in society, and it is our job to teach people the value it has?
Hey Abigail! I also found the beginning section of Ishmael to be really intriguing. I also like your point about us being teachers for the people around us, and think that if more people had this mindset we would set out to create a more positive and environmentally-friendly impact. I do think that sustainability is often misconceived. People either misunderstand what the concept is or they dont realize that it goes beyond just recycling or public transportation, and is actually a mindset that is applied to almost any situation or business. Its value is often under appreciated because of the illusion of abundance like we talked about in the sustainable water lecture. I think that we can all make this "bit of a difference" as you talk about by not only living our lives in sustainable ways, but teaching and encouraging others around us to do the same.
DeleteSo true. I loved when our last speaker spoke and made it apparent that we need people getting sustainability degrees as minors more than majors and majoring on something completely different. I find it so inspiring that Sustainability can be applied everywhere. Why wouldn't someone get a sustainability degree? All in all it seems to only benefit and will not only make you more efficient trying to work with in the 4 R's, but will also have the knowledge to spread the mission. Using a sustainability degree we can be teachers to those who do not see the point or even know what it is. Just yesterday I was trying to get my roommate to get into some sustainability classes. It's almost as if we need to disciple it in a way. We can be not only teachers but role models to those who want to change the way they think about sustainability and make an effort to save our planet.
Delete“There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with people. Given a story to enact that puts them in accord with the world, they will live in accord with the world. But given a story to enact that puts them at odds with the world, as yours does, they will live at odds with the world, they will act like lords of the world. And, given a story to enact in which the world is a foe to be compared, they will conquer it like a foe, and one day, inevitably, their foe will be bleeding to death at their feet, as the world is now.” (Pg84)
ReplyDeleteFrom this quote I believe that Daniel Quinn is trying to explain why people act the way they do in society. It is evident that people will act “in accord” with their environment according to the scenario they are placed in. Quinn understands that people are behaving in unsustainable manners and if this continues the world will continue “to bleed”. He is explaining how our world is falling apart due to our unsustainable practices that will continue to hinder our lives unless this behavior is changed. My question to you is how should we change our practices in order to stop our world from “bleeding”?
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DeleteI think in order to stop our world from "bleeding," we must first realize the impact we are making on society. When thinking back to page 15 in the book, the author says that we won't stop making a negative impact on our world because we do not know how to stop. I think the first step to fixing the problem, is to admit that there is a problem. Once we work to make those around us more aware, we will be able to push for a more sustainable world. This quote reminds me in particular of something I once heard that describes how we are at war with our world, and maybe, the Earth's natural response is "bleeding" because it can no longer fight back.
Delete“The problem is that man’s conquest of the world has itself devastated the world. And in spite of all the mastery we’ve attained, we don’t have enough mastery to stop devastating the world- or to repair the devastation we’ve already wrought.” (Ishmael, Chapter 5, Page 80)
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed the quote from the reading. We know as mankind we are a very powerful and strong force in the environment. We have mastered and learned many things to be proud of, but our power can be destructive. If we do not channel our power in the right way we have the potential to ruin and devastate the earth with our actions. We must always keep on evolving and questioning our culture as we know it. We created the world as it is and we all have the power to change the story.
According to "Endangered Species International" Of the 44,838 species assessed worldwide using the IUCN Red List criteria, 905 are extinct and 16,928 are listed as threatened to be extinct. The majority of this being from human actions rather than natural causes. With destruction of environments, pollution, and hunting/poaching. I believe this topic of destruction is the next big exploration in order to stop and prevent any more damage from occurring again. I agree with you Haley that we should be proud of what we have accomplished, but that we shouldn't be satisfied. I believe that is a perfect way to put it, because the more we grow as a species (numerically and intelligently) the more we have control on our future and our planets. And instead of just focusing on our wants, we can being to focus on our planets needs.
DeleteI really liked this quote too. It definitely made me think about the impact that we (humans) have had on the world. Also, it made me reflect of our impact in a different way than I normally would have because of the context in the book. It's rather easy for us to see the world as "ours", as opposed to something that we share with other species, and something that we should preserve. Due to this view, it is easier to look past the damage that we have caused. At the rate that we are going now, our actions will certainly lead to devastation. Since we were the ones who got ourselves into this current situation, we are the ones that need to figure out a solution to combat this.
DeleteThis was one of my favorite quotes too. Our world has become so technologically advance and because of its vast and profound advancements, it has become very difficult to stop and realize just how much they have slowly but surely negatively impacted the natural world around us. It is important to understand that, as of the present, we cannot and should not stop advancements in things like technology and development; however, I believe it is our responsibility to understand its effects and to utilize it to help preserve and develop the natural world rather than destroy it. I believe that in doing so we can lead our world into a sustainable future that maintains the beauty and abundance of nature and, as a result, improves the life of all of its inhabitants.
DeleteHaley,
DeleteI must say that I totally agree with you with the idea that even dough we have achieved life changing points, human power can be destructive if it is not directed and implemented moderately, we are proud of our achievements but our negative impact is something we shouldn’t be proud of. I also agree with the idea that we have shaped the world to what we know today, and I must include that it is essential for us to understand that even dough some actions can’t be revertible, we still can work to change things around and avoid hurting more our planet/home. We as intelligent animals have the task to make sure that together with us, the rest of the animal kingdom population and every other form of life is able to be supported and flourish.
“‘As far as I know, no one specifically wants to destroy the world.’
ReplyDelete‘And yet you do destroy it, each of you… You’re captives of a civilizational system that more or less compels you to go on destroying the world in order to live.’” Ishmael (25). While having only read through Chapter 6, this excerpt seems to grasp a major idea that Daniel Quinn may further explore in the remainder of his text. More specifically, the gorilla, once bound by captivity, allows the reader to gain insight of our own destructive being from an outside perspective. Hopefully the qualified teacher of captivity offers wisdom of how to break out of the bars that humans have trapped themselves behind.
This reflection on our society rings true especially in our contemporary society. Obviously, no one's intent in his/her day-to-day life is to destroy our precious ecosystems and such. However, that is the problem. Our day-to-day routines is how we're used to live, and thus we become reluctant towards change. Humans are so fixated towards a routine that we become doubtful or even anxious towards the thought of breaking up a cycle to which we have become accustomed. We find comfort in routines because we associate it to the notion of stability, and thus, safety. Change makes us nervous, but it's exactly what we have to do in order to prevent further destruction of our world. Some people are going to need to accept the fact their regimens are harmful, and find a way to live in a more sustainable style.
Delete"I also knew that all the inhabitants of the wagons were animals. But I could not quite
ReplyDeletemake out the constitution of an animal; our human visitors clearly distinguished between themselves and animals, but I was unable to figure out why. If I understood what made us animals (and I thought I did), I couldn’t understand what made them not animals". Ishmael, pg 9.
This stood out to me because it reminded me of a common thread in one of our other discussions about how humans often forget that we are part of an ecosystem, not the controllers of one. This quote show how we differentiate ourselves from other animals that we share most of our genetic information with and then act in ways that destroys their habitats and leads to extinctions without truly accepting the responsibility for that. I thought that this was profound, especially when told from Ishmael's perspective, because the message is even more pure and insightful.
Emily, I love what you said about how we refuse to accept the responsibility for our actions. We do not tend to do this. Everyone wants to talk the talk about protecting the wildlife of the world, but refuses to accept that we are a big part of the reason they need to be protected. We have made ourselves one of the biggest threats to wildlife, while claiming to be their one and only savior. It takes large scale change, in addition to the realization that the world is not here for us to dominate, in order to protect all of the species who live of Earth, including us.
DeleteEmily, What you said proves a very good point. All to often we as a species forget that we're apart of a bigger system and for some reason think that we rule all the land. We have to be the protectors of ecosystems, not the destroyers. In addition we have to realize that we may not be here till the end of time and we have to leave the earth in a livable state (unlike the path we're heading down).
Delete"Ishmael thought for a moment "Among the people of your culture, which want to destroy the world?''"
ReplyDelete... "...Each of you contributes daily to the destruction of the world"
..."Why don't you stop?" (Page 14, Ishmael)
When reading this quote, I a connect with what is happening on this page. First, I agree with the fact that the character pauses for a moment and says "No one *wants* to destroy the world"
To me, this is true, when thinking of the woes of our ways, no one has intentionally tried to destroy our social, economic, and environmental well being, however, it has happened because, as put on page 15, "we don't know how to" stop. Daniel Quinn captures the essence of what the whole books is about through this shocking quote. Of course, no one wants to destroy our world, but we are. Relating this back to sustainability, I am reminded that we are the creators of the problem but we are also the creators of our solution. Though we have reached a point where sustainability is inevitable, we can choose to not further impact our Earth negatively. When relating to this quote, I am reminded that even if I am not aware of the impact I am creating on my Earth, I should be more cautious towards preserving environmental, social, and economical justice in this world. So, my question is that if people are more aware of the impact they have on society, would this encourage them to want to stop in their tracks and push for a more sustainable future? Or, as mentioned in the book, because we don't know how to stop, we wont?
I've had a similar question that I ask myself every time we have a guest lecture who opens our eyes to the world around us on certain topics or research they have done, which almost always show how “Each of you contributes daily to the destruction of the world" and then that when I ask myself if we all know and understand that we contribute to destroying the world, what would it take to get us to stop destroying the world? The only answer I have for that is what I learned from Dr. Chandler when he says we have to spread the knowledge because that is the key to get others to be more aware of their impact in order to work together as a community, country, and world on being sustainable for changes to made such as adding new laws in the government to set sustainable standards for all companies. Whether we like it or not, we all share the same fate together, so we all have to work together.
Delete"If gorillas were capable of such an expression, they would tell you that their family is like a hand, of which they are the fingers. They are fully aware of being a family but are very little aware of being individuals. Here is the zoo there were other gorillas---but there was no family. Five severed fingers do not make a hand." Quinn, Daniel. Ishmael. pg. 12
ReplyDeleteThis stood out to me, in many ways. At first I felt a certain closeness and appreciation for my family, and then, in turn, reverted to how we have impacted the lives of animals and other organisms across the world. We tend to forget that animals interact in ways similar to ours, and we treat them as if they are content with our intervention. How do we remind ourselves that we do not have the right to be in control of the world, instead of just a part of it? Why do we take what is not ours to take, and say that it is. We destroy habitats, food sources, water sources, and contribute to so many changes that impact so many different species of flora and fauna. How do we go about changing our perspective from owning everything, to sharing with the rest of the world's creatures?
I think a lot of it stems from lack of education. To tie that in with Ishmael, we don't know the bars that keep us in captivity. By having this teacher/pupil relationship, something good may come out of it and help others realize what it is that needs to change. A change of mindset, or the groupthink, is needed. We can no longer focus on solely human desires because when resources start depleting and becoming rare, our desires will turn to preservation and that willco-align with other species. Thus, the time is now to begin thinking about how we can all coexist and maintain the habitat which is necessary for life's survival.
DeleteI think that this mindset that we share stems from the idea that humans are a superior species to all other. This ignorance is dangerous because we neglect to see that we need the Earth much more than it needs us. Since we have been taught since birth that we inherently have control and power, we don’t realize that this mindset is what may doom us in the future. I think that the debate over human superiority is very interesting. It is obvious that when you look around you see the triumphs of man. We may be superior with regards to intelligence(though this is debatable at times), but we are inferior in many other regards. We are biased because we value the achievements that allowed humans to succeed like agriculture, language, or colonization. Regardless of our species’ ranking, it i more important to realize that above all, we need to preserve the one place we can all call home. Once we overcome our obsession with possessing and overpowering the earth, we can learn how to live in harmony with our home and our neighbors.
DeleteWell tying it into Maslow's hierarchy of needs, solving problems within humanity will in turn help alter our impact on the rest of the world. When over 1 billion humans are believed to be without safe drinking water, they simply wont care about their impact on the natural world. Westerners try to shame those who chop down the Amazon rainforest not realizing that it is their means for survival in a world based on money and that they are filling our demand. We take what is not ours so that we can thrive just as any animal would but we do so on an enormous scale because we have essentially beaten the natural balance within nature. The second humans began to settle in permanent homes and domesticate animals is when we left the food chain and truly set ourselves apart from all other animals on this planet. Basically, I think it is natural to be selfish. Most animals are in a sense. But it is our responsibility given the power that we posses to recognize the abuse we are putting our planet through and put an end to it.
Delete“The pinnacle was reached in man. Man is the climax of the whole cosmic drama of creation. When man finally appeared, creation came to an end, because its objective had been reached. There was nothing left to create.” (pg 33. Ishmael)
ReplyDeleteI don’t believe when they said there is nothing left to create after man simply because other creations of life have been made since the beginning of mankind. I have read many religious text where it’s implied that man is the end of creation but it doesn’t even stop there because religion goes further to state that man was the end creation for the entire universe. In my opinion, all creations were a product of its environment. According to Ishmael we went from single cell bacteria to jellyfish to man but what I’m saying that we went to single cell organism to humans because our biosphere molded us and created humans through evolution.
"You're captives of a civilizational system that more or less compels you to go on destroying the world in order to live." Ishmael (25)
ReplyDeleteI think this quote really captures some institutional problems within our society and mistakes that were made with the progression in civilization and business during our past. Do you think that widespread movement (or education) of ours and new generations could fix this (IE grassroots), or is it something that needs to be addressed by government and legislation?
This is a very accurate quote about human history to say the least. A professor once told me that the people alive today are very blessed to be alive because we are one of the wealthiest civilizations. Despite all the poverty and world hunger we see around the world, history has shown that humans today live much longer, and healthier lives. Perhaps, in the past human civilization was just eager to develop a system that supports themselves. As selfish as that sounds we did what we could to survive in the food chain, which brings me to your question. I think those that have the power to implement change, such as the government, should address these issues. We no longer live in an uncivilized system, therefore it is important for us to develop a new method of living.
DeleteSurvival of the fittest and competition are natural responses to living, and humans have been able to dominate most of the competition we've faced over history and are trying to dominate even our environment now that we have nothing else that is a threat. I think our civilization has encouraged this destruction because we are always advancing and growing and in order to keep providing our comforts and advancements. We have been exploiting our resources. Society has made this way of life for us that it is not always easy to go against. We have to drive cars to get to our jobs and work to have a place in the economy. We are encouraged and even manipulated by media to purchase goods and services that are often harmful to the environment. I have looked at this system and felt trapped. We cannot outgrow our host but keep draining the planet of all it supplies. We as a society should find better ways to work with the environment to create a better life for all living things instead of competing with and destroying the world. This can start with the people becoming informed of the issues and starting a widespread movement and can hopefully lead to legislative demands. If we do prove to be "fitter" than the Earth, we surely won't survive.
Delete“the world would not meekly submit to man’s rule, so he had to do what to it?
ReplyDelete“he has to conquer it” – pg. 73
This conversation brings up a very critical issue in sustainability and that is that humans have been subjugated the land of the earth. This is because nature is hard to tame, they discuss how “the earthquake, the flood, the hurricane, the blizzard, and the drought would not disappear at his command.” How does it apply to what is happening around the world today? What is the ethical issue with humans having to conquer the land in order to use it?
Hello Trevor,
DeleteI found this quote to be thought provoking as well. For one, I do not believe that mankind has always fought against the land. There are plenty of historical examples that demonstrate societies working with it and living sustainably. In fact, there are still those today that strive to do that. Having said that, to get to where mankind is today, through conquering and building upon dangerous terrain or in hazardous climatic regions, a fight against nature certainly took place. This has created multiple ethical issues for society. The first issue is how to tame the planet without destroying it, while the second one is how to minimize the impacts of conditions on Earth that we cannot control.
Trevor, I do happen to agree with the quote you have chosen. We, as a civilization, have adopted this principle in which we react as an adversary every time the planet presents us with a challenge. While in previous societies I believe we were not such foes to mother nature; only 10,000 years ago we were still hunter-gatherers, better harmonizing with nature. But now I believe we are the new Takers. Now as Caroline pointed out, it is certainly an incredible feat that we have developed the kind of technology to overcome such dangerous terrain or hazardous climatic regions to better serve mankind. But we've already accomplished the basic needs of survival long ago! Now we are only sucking the resources (a.k.a. life) out of our planet to sustain the kind of consumerism culture we have placed such a value on today. We need to focus on dispersing resources and technology to those who live without it instead of feeding more and more to the people who have more than enough.
DeleteHali McKinley Lester
ReplyDelete"They’ve been given an explanation of how things came to be this way, and this stills their alarm. This explanation covers everything, including the deterioration of the ozone layer, the pollution of the oceans, the destruction of the rain forests, and even human extinction-and it satisfies them. Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that is pacifies them.” (Ishmael 44).
I found this quote to be really powerful and definitely true. We are presented with a lot of troublesome facts about the deterioration of our environment, yet we are still passive and don’t feel an urgent need to do anything about the facts we’re faced with. I think one of the explanations for this stems from the fact that we won’t see too many of the effects in the short term. Older people can warn teenagers about the dangers of skin cancer, but we want the instant gratification of being tan now, so we don’t concern ourselves with long term effects as much. We know humans are harming the environment, and since we have this explanation, we assume it will just continue and the disasters will occur after we die. In this way, we can avoid dealing with the real fear induced by these problems. Yet, I wonder, is there even a way to convince people that we should not be pacified by the explanations of why our environment is in such a dire situation?
I asked a very similar question in my original post. Humans in western societies (the Takers) justify all these actions by not explicitly stating, but indirectly claiming that they were destined for it. It is seen as “the price of becoming human” because that has been the fate of the whole universe; western human dominance. I think education like this book is at very least a start to opening up the topic for discussion because Ishmael brings up a very good point: even though this story has been told countless times and even though the Takers hear it every day in almost everything they don’t recognize it or acknowledge it. It’s swept under the rug and is pacified by “Mother Culture” and their destiny. If we get people to acknowledge this, then I believe it will be much easier to start to change people’s opinions on the subject and maybe this will also help with the desensitizing of serious environmental issues. I agree in that a big problem is that we don’t often see first hand the effects of ozone depletion or ocean pollution, but we will eventually if initiatives are not done to stop the bad habits and ways of thinking that persist now.
DeleteThe only way I believe humans will not be pacified of the dire conditions of our environment is if the situation worsens to the detrimental point that humans are obligated and given no choice but to address the issue, in a life or death matter. People just rationalize to themselves that conservation and sustainability are not necessary, pressing issues so they can continue to live guilty free and lavishing in the luxuries of overusing resources. To actually begin to care for the Earth would mean sacrificing some of these liberties and benefits. There is also the comfort of knowing that every other American is overusing just as many resources as you are, which perpetuates a sense that things will never change, and that the individual doesn’t make a difference.
Delete“And in spite of all the mastery we’ve attained, we don’t have enough mastery to stop devastating the world, or to repair the devastation we’ve already wrought.” (Quinn 82)
ReplyDeleteThe first few chapters of this book were interesting, and really dove into the human spirt right off the bat. This quote stood out for me because just the other day I was talking with a friend about how fast technology has advanced. However, as this quote suggests we do not seem to have the ‘mastery’ to stop devastating the world. Do you guys think this sort of mastery comes from within, and less about advancing technology? If humans are so smart then we should be able to master our own choices that balance with the rest of the world.
I think this quote is interesting and has a lot of meaning. This quote relates to society today and what we are trying to accomplish. Our environment is being destroyed before our very own eyes and we are not doing everything we can to save it. We have unlimited technology and science, but we cannot figure out how to save our diminishing environment. I think that nobody is taking responsibility for their actions regarding the environment and people should step up and do their part. Whether that part requires recycling newspaper or lecturing students about different ways to conserve energy, there is a part to be played and it must be played if we want sustainability.
DeleteThis is a great question you pose! As we look at this quote from Ishmael and throughout human history, it seems as though we have been great at the mastery of our surroundings; our environment, other species, etc., but in my opinion we have not developed this 'mastery' of ourselves. Therefore to answer your question, I do think this is a mastery that is developed on a personal level. Humans must look deep into themselves to develop this very important 'mastery' which I would define as a self-control and self-awareness. We have focused our whole existence on controlling the world around us. Now is the time to master ourselves so that we can stop devastating our world and repair the devastation we have already wrought.
Delete"It's certainly not always unspoken. The religions of your culture aren't reticent about it. Man is the end product of creation. Man is the creature for whom all the rest was made: this world, this solar system, this galaxy, the universe itself." (Ishmael, p 57.)
ReplyDeleteThis quote talks about the widespread, yet erroneous belief that is the root cause of humans living inharmoniously with the environment. We live under the assumption that earth’s resources were made for us. We carry ourselves in a way that perceives all other living beings as tools that exist solely to enable and enhance our own species’ short term existence. Society is built upon the idea that technological, medical, weaponry and agricultural advancements put humans on a higher level than other living beings. Our “sophisticated” society makes people feel that they are not vulnerable because humans are in control of the earth. While these advancements do strengthen our power in the short term, they are actually putting us in a much more dangerous long term situation. To put it in Ishmael terms, with man gone there will be hope for everything else to thrive again, with gorilla gone there will be no hope for man. Our entire existence in contingent on the existence of the ecosystem we are a part of.
How do you think we can start to change the “story” that Mother Culture tells? The quote I used mentions religions role in perpetuating Mother Cultures story. Many people are steadfast in their religious views and not likely to be open to change. How should we go about approaching and changing these peoples minds?
Marcela,
DeleteI really enjoyed reading your post and had similar thoughts when I read the book several years ago. Your question is incredibly complex and I surely cannot provide a solution to it from a mere paragraph of writing. But it's worth exploring and I enjoy thinking about these things so I'll give it a shot. I think that the hope in changing this often hardheaded mindset lies in the new generations. Not to say all hope is lost in expressing this idea to anyone over 50, but to best incorporate an idea into society, we must start with the youth. And with the youth of course, comes our education system. I think it should be the responsibility of our schooling to help students recognize there needs to be a separation between their thinking in and outside of their place of religious practice. It is important to continue to respect the religious teachings of these people, but at the same time it makes sense to try to have children accept the idea that earth and most of its creatures were around long before humans existed. Again, this is a difficult problem to address- and a sensitive topic, but it almost indefinitely should begin being solved with the way we teach our youth.
“The mythology of your culture hums in your ears so constantly that no one pays the slightest bit of attention to it. Of course man is conquering space and the atom and the deserts and the oceans and the elements. According to your mythology, this is what he was born to do.” Ishmael, Page 74. Do you agree with Ishmael's thesis that modern culture plants in human beings from birth the idea they are divinely destined to control the world? If so, is there a way that we can reverse this attitude in the future?
ReplyDeleteThis is a great excerpt. In regards to your question, yes I do believe our culture teaches us that we can control the natural world. All around us are structures and devices to do just that. As our planet changes, as a whole, we do not think to change our own behavior to suit our environment but instead devise ways to defeat and prevent the environment from affecting us. Take for example the city of New Orleans. Located right on the coast and below sea level, everyone knew it was at risk for flooding, but people paid no mind because it was convenient for shipping. Instead of living somewhere else the original settlers hunkered and built a beautiful city. In more recent times, instead of restoring wetlands (they are a natural buffer against hurricanes and such) they decided to erect levees. All around us are examples of humans trying to dominate the natural world instead of living with it.
DeleteLilia,
DeleteI think this idea that humans are destined to control the world stems from the fact that human beings place themselves in a dramatically different—and higher—class or category from the rest of the world. Humans try their hardest to keep moving forward, to keep proving their superiority over the rest of the world, lending to its destruction and to the fading of the fact that humans and animals and the ecosystem are still interdependent, and very much so at that. As it seems now, the way to change the direction of human advancement is to educate people and show people that “success” and “progress” are not only defined by space exploration and cooler cars. Success can also be, and essentially actually is, the way to optimize human life in relation to and with respect to the environment and the other species.
"I'm sure you've noticed that only tourists really look at local landmarks. For all practical purposes, these landmarks are invisible to the natives, simply because they're always there in plain sight." (Page 90)
ReplyDeleteThis quote was intriguing because it is something that I don't tend to think about. It reminded me of how we often take our environment for granted and do not truly appreciate it because it is something that is in plain sight. When I travel to other places, I often find myself being more aware of nature and appreciative of the scenery than I do back home. Since change usually happens gradually, it is difficult for us to see the effects that we are having on our immediate environment over time. Whereas, it is much easier to notice and be aware of impacts on an unfamiliar environment. If we had more of a "tourist outlook" on the environment, do you think that we would see more people fighting for sustainability? Or would this different outlook not make a significant difference?
I think you touched a very interesting point here. I have thought about what the quote is saying, that we pay much more attention and are more appreciative of landmarks in places that are new to us than at home. However, I had never thought about using this bias as a tool to build consciousness toward sustainability. I do think that if we were able to travel more and get to see more natural sceneries, we would care more about our environment, especially if this happened during childhood. I think a good explanation for why we do not fight as hard for sustainability is because we are conditioned to just "accept things as they are" growing up. We see cars, pollution, etc, but that is just all we know. If we had different perspectives growing up, I believe we would have more of that "tourist outlook" you talk about and therefore appreciate our natural environment more than we do.
Delete“WITH MAN GONE, WILL THERE BE HOPE FOR GORILLA? This sign stopped me—or rather, this text stopped me. Words are my profession; I seized these and demanded that they explain themselves, that they cease to be ambiguous. Did they imply that hope for gorillas lay in the extinction of the human race or in its survival? It could be read either way. It was, of course, a koan—meant to be inexplicable. …You really ought to do something about this, I told myself angrily.” (Ishmael, page 5)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really interested me, because it reminded me of the issues that society is faced with today. Almost every issue can be considered a controversy of some sort, because there are so many aspects that are a part of it and so many different opinions on the matter. It is difficult for one to give something one particular answer or one set way of solving a problem. When we approach a controversial problem we usually ignore it, or chose what is in our own best interest. Instead of seeing the big picture, we decide to see only what we want. I believe this concept can also be applied to our actions and thought on sustainability. For example, not everyone believes in the environmental issues that we are facing today, and not many people know how they can change the degradation that has already begun. Some chose to change their actions for the good of the planet, but because not all believe in the issues, not all partake. This leads me to create my own “koan”: Does the fate of the Earth rely on us? Or are we, as a society doing more harm than good?
At this point, the fate of the Earth does rely on us. We have done so much damage that it is up to us to repair it. The actions that we are taking towards a better future- passing legislation like the Clean Air Act and the Comprehensive Environmental Response, Compensation, and Liability Act, recycling, et cetera- may not be the fast track towards fixing the Earth, but it's absolutely a good place to start. Unless humans were to suddenly stop all destructive practices tomorrow, the Earth cannot simply repair itself. If we wish to continue on a path that leaves our lives as close to how comfortable they are now as possible, we need to make some changes.
DeleteWhen we read Ishmael in my English class in high school, my teacher made this sign. It served as a daily reminder to take the lessons from this book to heart. Sometimes, however, she would switch "man" and "gorilla" around, so the question became "WITH GORILLA GONE, WILL THERE BE HOPE FOR MAN?" While this version is less ambiguous (how could man's survival be dependent on the extinction of gorillas?), it really brings the point home for me.
“The thing I most wanted to do in the world was… to find a teacher. That’s right. I imagined I wanted a teacher- needed a teacher. To show me how one goes about doing something that might be called… saving the world. “ (Ishmael 4). I found this excerpt very interesting. Although this seems like drastic measure, all he is doing is realizing his part. He sees flaws in society that can be fixed, and must be fixed to live sustainably. Sustainability is the duty of every individual who wants to have a positive impact on the environment. Having a teacher and somebody to lead the way is not given to everybody. Many people have sought out their own ways to leave positive impacts. Once the responsibility of sustainability is going on, education is the next step. Educating others and us about what must be done to help society.
ReplyDelete"Before long I too began to ask myself why. Being neurologically far in advance of the tiger, I was able to examine what I meant by the question, at least in a rudimentary way." (Pg. 11, Chapter 3. Start of last paragraph, Ishmael)
ReplyDeleteAt the start of this chapter, it begins with describing the tiger. Whom would pace around it's cage, every day, 24/7, asking the question "why?" But the tiger never understood, nor came to a conclusion, so it would continually ask "why?" This is because the tiger was never used to doing this in it's natural habitat. Then there was the gorilla, who was smarter, and more capable of answering the question "why?" eventually asked himself, he could find some solution. I believe this particular part of the book reflects many people in a sense. There are the people who when in a tough situation, just ask themselves why, and never come to a conclusion, so they continue to ask themselves and never see any results. This is because the environment in which they were raised they never had to ask questions. Whereas there are people who are more intelligently capable, come into a situation where they are stuck, they think of ways to solve their dilemma. Ultimately, I believe this goes to explain why some people behave the way they do. If a worldly problem arouses, there are people who basically do nothing and wait for something to eventually have a turn for the better, and then there are the more intelligent people who notice the issue, and try to figure out ways to solve it. Describing why only some people involve themselves in making things better and why others just sit around, and wait. Do you agree with this connection or do you believe it has another meaning?
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ReplyDelete"But the last of gods' tricks was the worst of all. Though the Takers don't know it yet, the gods did not exempt man from the law that governs the lives of grubs and ticks and shrimps and rabbits and mollusks and deer and lion and jellyfish. They did not exempt him from this law any more than they exempted him from the law of gravity, and this is going to be the bitterest blow of all to the Takers." (Ishmael Ch.6.5 pg 103, penultimate paragraph) I saw this as an interesting and important point. In as much as we discover these laws and define them as events that will always occur, man also believes that somehow we are above these laws. Somehow, humans always seem to ignore these laws, as if ignoring them would mean they don't apply to us. How is it we seem to forget that fact, why is it we can't grasp hold of that concept?
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ReplyDelete"People talk about the destruction of the ozone layer and the death of all life. They talk about the devastation of the rain forests, about deadly pollution that will be with us for thousands and millions of years, about the disappearance of dozens of species of life everyday, about the end of speciation itself. And they seem perfectly calm." Ismael, 44
ReplyDeleteThis quote made me what to scream. How do we not realize what we are doing to our life source, and what we are doing to one another? Those who preach about the consequences of environmental depletion are often viewed as insane to those who are blind to the larger picture. People are far too focused on individual benefit to care that their actions can have a widespread effect beyond their reach. This can be attributed to the lack of empathy and compassion that can be witnessed in today's societal structure, which is governed around economic gain. If it does not directly and immediately affect a person, they often forget to care. Since we cannot put a face on this issue, there is a lack of responsibility and action to reverse it. We must realize, this planet is our home, so it is all of our responsibility to protect it.
I agree, people are not 'perfectly calm'. You say "those who preach...of environmental degradation are often viewed as insane," but be weary, the tide of environmental negligence wanes.
DeleteI believe the preachers were mainly seen as impractical, because the objectives proposed to avoid Earth disequilibrium do not fit well with the current infrastructure of many locations around the globe. The ecological culture the preachers request and teach cannot reside alongside the cultures of shopping malls, gas stations, mindless entertainment, air-conditioning, and globalized food franchises. In the United States, the oligarchy capitalizes from the mindless entertainment culture and scarcity mind to suffocate empathy and compassion; therefore, even members of the local community are foreign to each other.
The fault is not the people; however, the people are the bridge to unity. The bridge forms as we dream, as we speak, as we feel, as we learn, as we try, as we fail, as we succeed, as we live together. With unity of the local communities, the effects of one are shared with another. The responsibility is universal. If this cooperation is scaled to the globe, wonders are waiting.
To reiterate, we do realize what we are doing to our life source. People are not perfectly calm; however, many people do not act, because they feel disenfranchised and unaccepted in their prospective community in one way or another (race, wealth, gender, behavior, preferences, politics [ugh]).
UNITY FOR PRESIDENT 2016! (Or Jill Stein)
“As the Takers see it, all this is simply the price of becoming human.” (Ishmael, p. 75)
ReplyDeleteThe pupil in this chapter has just pieced together the beginning and middle of the story of mankind. The Earth is simply a vessel for mankind to succeed and in order to succeed he must conquer nature as to not live like “a lion or wombat” but to live “civilized”. Ishmael reveals that even though man conquering the Earth is destroying it, people are ok with it. The statement above is their viewpoint or justification for the destruction. My question is, how would you propose we change the Takers’s viewpoint on their actions (our viewpoints and actions)? Is there a way to reverse the premise of their story (our story)?
NAIM CONRAD VILABRERA
ReplyDeleteISHMAEL PAGE 119 Paragraph 3.
"Their explanation is that something is fundamentally wrong with people.
Not that you, Takers, may be doing something wrong but rather that there is something fundamentally wrong with human nature."
Because nature often is natural and inevitable, this quote asserts that humans excuse our violations of stress unloaded upon the plant.
Do you agree or do you think there is a stereotyping of individuals? Do you as a human believe in this fundamental flaw? Is there a separation between Takers and other humans?
The true center of every human soul is pure, loving and joyful. Humans do tend to get caught up with distractions and thoughts that don't serve them or the present moment. Through drug and alcohol addiction, unhealthy eating, and simple prescription drugs for colds and headaches, the natural balance of the body is disrupted, and therefore the mind and spirit follows.
DeleteIt is not in human nature to destroy our home or other beings. I think humans, including myself, forget how pure our being truly is. Our society forces the mind to believe in constant competition among others, and in turn, leads to a destructive life. Thinking of ourselves as different from the people with this skewed mindset only further separates humanity, which is again the driving force of the competition which leads to destroying the earth.
" Of course. As you tell it, the birth of man was a central event - indeed the central event - in the history of the cosmos itself. From the birth of man on, the rest of the universe ceases to be of interest, ceases to participate in the unfolding drama." (Ishmael 59)
ReplyDeleteI found this quote to be intriguing. I believe that this is actually a common perspective that humans have. And although we now know that earth is not at the center of the solar system and universe, you would think that people might realize how small humanity is in the grand scheme of things. Not to trivialize the power of man but that is limited to our planet and the other forms of life we share it with (even though we have kind of tried to keep it all to ourselves). Anyways, the questions that this brought to me were first, if humanity had a more in depth understanding (on average) of how interconnected the world really is, would our society have developed in a more sustainable fashion than it has? Is the sustainability movement being fueled by our own needs and survival or is there a genuine care for mother nature and the other animals that walk the same earth? Finally, what is the likelihood that this rather egocentric mindset will change in coming generations?
Hey Colin,
DeleteI believe it’s all a matter of reconstructing the delicate infrastructure of our society. I say delicate because it is always changing, and so I see hope in that someday it will change our ways of thinking and thus our ways of living. Like Quinn says, we are on a cycle of trial-and-error. It is up to us to break from it and open our eyes. Creating a new “Mother Culture” that will tell us the reality of what is really going on and how we must live instead of blinding us from it and oppressing us to our own invisible cage in which we wander aimlessly, like the tiger. We must ask ourselves ‘Why?’ to see the truth of our own captivity. The idea of the world belonging to man and how man must conquer it has been long embedded and instilled in civilizations for centuries (not all civilizations of course, some cultures had completely different ideas on how we should be living and our purpose on this planet). And this idea is just another error in the cycle of trial-and-error we’ve been falling into for so long. We are plummeting to our deaths at an accelerating rate with this idea. So, with more education and implementation, I think people are becoming more aware of this interdependence between all beings on our planet and are therefore seeing the world with a new lens. The spread of this new perception should eventually lead to a new “Mother Culture” that is more in tune and harmonizes with the usually ignored or feared ‘Mother Nature.’ The only problem is that we can’t wait for ‘eventually’ to come. We must come together and act now.
"You've been doing what you damn well please with the world. And of course you mean to go right on doing what you damn well please with it, because the whole damn thing belongs to you." (pg. 61)
ReplyDeleteI found this quote to be powerful because it gives us a non-human perspective on humanity's selfishness and greed. Although spoken by a gorilla and therefore not realistic, it reminds the reader that this planet was not made for humans, and that every other organism is effected through our poor actions. Do you think there is enough of a focus on conservation ecology or does there need to be more?
There definitely needs to be more focus on conservation ecology. There are a few different perspective to take into consideration for a reaction to the quote you used. There are those who believe that man has earned their right to domination on earth through the concept of survival of the fittest. There are also those who think we have gone way too far with populations too high and we need to resort to primitive ways to living to regain balance here on earth. I sit in the middle. I believe we as a human race have grown to the top of the food chain as result of out intelligence and need to sustain the world with that same level of intelligence. I believe that humanity can make conservation of the nature a priority and live in a society that doesn't damage the ecology and natural life around it. We must still assert out dominance, but in a way such that we are preserving the well being of other species on this planet.
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ReplyDelete“People talk about the destruction of the ozone layer and the death of all life. They talk about the devastation of the rain forests, about deadly pollution that will be with us for thousands and millions of years, about the disappearance of dozens of species of life every day, about the end of speciation itself. And they seem perfectly calm.” Page 25.
ReplyDeleteThis part of the text really caught my attention because I think it relates a lot to what we have been talking in class about the psychology of sustainability. I think the first step towards building a more sustainable future is knowing about issues like devastation of rainforests, pollution and so on, but most of us now already know about it. The thing is that it is easy to detach ourselves from these problems and their implications, because of physical distance to where they occur, and time distance, and the full impacts of them will not be understood until later. How do you think we can get the people that already know about the problems we face to feel connected to them and to their solution?
"There's nothing fundamentally wrong with people. Given a story to enact that puts them in accord with the world, they will live in accord with the world. But given a story to enact that puts them at odds with the world, as yours does, they will live at odds with the world. Given a story to enact in which they are the lords of the world, they will act like lords of the world. And, given a story to enact in which the world is a foe to be conquered, they will conquer it like a foe, and one day, inevitably, their foe will lie bleeding to death at their feet, as the world is now." – Ishmael, pg. 84
ReplyDeleteThis picture Ishmael is painting here hits too close to home. Society basically rules that the only way to shape the world into a better place is to conquer it. Man never fails to operate as an adversary when confronted against the planet. Undoubtedly, we as a civilization are guilty of this behavior; it’s impossible to deny that we as a species are now the Takers. When things go beyond our control, we’re so distressed that we feel a need to fix the problem – but what makes it a problem in the first place, is because we’re looking at it that way. The Leavers view our same “problem” as only an unfavorable event in the natural cycle of life. By empowering Mother Culture to sketch us a catastrophic story, we continue to enact that story.
I found this quote interesting as well. I agree with you that many things have only become problems because of the way humanity views it. I think it also taps into that factor of fear that can overtake us. When we fear something or are unsure we feel the need to take over and control everything. This fear and uncertainty also hinders us and makes us blind to the bigger picture therefore we can only see that the only way to deal with the craziness of this world is to conquer it; regardless of the other inhabitants that we have to share it with.
Delete"They put their shoulders to the wheel during the day, stupefy themselves with drugs or television at night, and try not to think too searchingly about the world they're leaving their children to cope with." (pg.44)
ReplyDeleteThis quote from Ishmael is very sad but true. The mundane cycle that today's society has fallen into has trapped us in our own little worlds and caused us to ignore our surroundings. By not being able to stop and see the bigger picture, we do not see how our actions will affect our children and future generations. One of the definitions of sustainability is that we are able to live and use resources in a way that allows future generations to as well. If our everyday lives are distracting us from being sustainable, how will we be able to break out of this cycle and save the future generations?
I agree with both what you said and with the quote. The society that we are currently living in thrives on monotony so that people are hypnotized and essentially carry on their day-to-day lives without questioning their actions or reflecting on the ramifications of their actions. Clearly, this is not a sustainable way of living.
Delete“You’re captives of a civilizational system that more or less compels you to go on destroying the world in order to live.” Ishmael Page 15
ReplyDeleteThis quote had a profound impact on me because I feel like it applies well to those living in capitalistic societies, like that of America for example. Capitalism thrives on the concepts of using and taking, 2 ideologies that are very much opposed to the ideas of sustainability, which call for preservation and conservation. It is for this reason that I believe that citizens who are living in capitalistic societies can be considered captives who are basically forced to destroy the world in order to live because capitalism is a greed driven machine that forces citizens to use resources at an unnatural pace.
I thought this quote was particularly intriguing as well. However, I wouldn’t necessarily say we’re trapped, as Ishmael says, considering that our current situation is very much escapable. I would instead say that we are blinded, or possibly just misguided. Although the capitalistic nature of our society is partially at blame, I believe most of the fault falls within ourselves. Within capitalism, we hold as much as power to give back as we take away; the most basic and elementary example of this would be planting a tree for every one we cut down. However, are destructive actions are passed from one generation to the next, thus making it difficult to break out of the cycle. Still, I think our generation is becoming more conscious of our current circumstance, and is starting to see the bars that are holding us back.
Delete"You've been doing what you damn well please with the world. And of course you mean to go right on doing what you damn well please with it, because the whole damn thing belongs to you." (pg. 61)
ReplyDeleteI feel as though this quote in particular illustrates the general attitude of man since industrialization began and man's desire for bigger and for more replaced the desire for basic necessities. Today's society, especially, seems to desire the luxuries and gives little thought as to the impact those luxuries create. It is like what Quinn is saying through this text, members of society view themselves as owners of the earth, using our development and intelligence as excuses to use the earth and its resources to benefit us. However, if we continue down this road, our own intelligence could lead to our demise as a population. Rather, it is time to use our intelligence to understand our place in the world and to fix the problems we've created throughout the years. The earth is not just something we can use as we damn well please without paying the consequences of doing so.
“Did even the planetary process of creation come to an end three million years ago with the appearance of man? Did evolution come to a screeching halt just because man had arrived?” (Ishmael, 57)
ReplyDeleteThese are profound questions that Ishmael raises, and especially troubling as they challenge the essence of how we view humanity’s role in the universe. Setting aside the fundamentalist views of creationists, religion, specifically Judeo-Christian values, emphasizes our dominance over the rest of creation. This isn’t at all to say that Christianity teaches us to disregard and disrespect our environment; however, it does teach us that the resources, both living and non-living, that surround us are at our disposal for our benefit, which I think has led to a dangerous precedent in our capitalistic society. We define forward progress as what is most beneficial to ourselves, rather than what is actually sustainable for the future. In reality, as Ishmael said, we are not the epitome of creation. The universe is constantly evolving, and since we are intertwined with the rest of nature, it is essential that we leave the Earth as we found it so that all of nature will live on and continue to grow.
I agree that we as a society must continue to evolve and adapt in order to secure the future of our planet. The idea that evolution has come to a screeching halt with the creation of man is an extremely dangerous mindset to adopt. While we have learned to sustain our needs and desires in the present, our current path is leading us towards imminent demise. In order for the human race to continue to survive and thrive adaptions must be made before we pump our planet dry of resources and leave a barren, polluted wasteland behind. There is far more work to be done, and quitting now is simply not an option.
Delete“I’m sure you’ve noticed that only tourists really look at local landmarks. For all practical purposes, these landmarks are invisible to the natives, simply because they’re always there in plain sight.—This is what we’ve been doing in our journey so far. We’ve been wandering around your cultural homeland looking at the landmarks the natives never see. A visitor from another planet would find them remarkable, even extraordinary, but the natives of your culture take them for granted and don’t even notice them” (Quinn 90).
ReplyDeleteOut of all the interesting and thought provoking ideas that this book presents, this quote was one that stood significantly. It really made me think about a different side of how sustainability and conservation relates to our relationship with the world around us. Like the quote says, it’s as if we sometimes become blind to all of the gifts that our natural world provides for us on a daily basis, because we are so used to its seemingly never ending abundance. When this happens, we exploit its beauty to the point where we are no longer cherishing it, but using it in a way that destroys it. In order to live sustainably, we have to constantly remind ourselves of its beauty, abundance, and importance and of the fact that it cannot be infinite if we continue to consume and produce waste at our current rate. It is, again, another aspect of human dignity that centers around our responsibility to protect and maintain our natural world for future generations to come.
“ The Takers regard the world as a sort of human life-support system, as a machine designed to produce and sustain human life” (Quinn, Daniel. Ishmael, Page 59, 3rd Paragraph).
ReplyDeleteThis is a very interesting quote the author uses to support an acclaimed “meaning of the World” as to what we think of it. If we take a look at his writing we can see how he tries to play along the lines of how man is the center of the universe, and everything created around him is to serve as support and resources. Even when some think this is true, it is really hard to keep up with this idea, considering the fact that we are not the only ones in this planet and that every single plant and animal is not edible, so we are meant to survive and interact in and with our environment to keep it going. Many will use the idea proposed by this author as an excuse to get away with their malpractices, but at the end, they will find themselves with the truth that as humans, we must be sustainable to keep the play running, as earth is not a factory that supports life, instead it is life, and we must be the factory to support it. Do you think that this quote is in part true? or do you agree with me?
"The problem is that man's conquest of the world has itself devastated the world. And in spite of all the mastery we've attained, we don't have enough mastery to stop devastating the world- or to repair the devastation we've already wrought" (80). With this passage the narrator comes to the realization that all of the breakthroughs and progress that man has made has only lead to the downfall and degradation of the planet. While we have learned to survive and fulfill our most lavish desires, we have failed to consider our impact on the planet for generations to come. True mastery of the planet requires complete self sustainability. We must be able to replenish the resources that we consume and leave behind as little pollution as possible. It is impossible for mankind to continue for centuries to come if we continue on our current pace. As we continue to evolve, new technologies and ways of living must develop in order to preserve the planet for generations to come.
ReplyDeleteZach I think you make a good point. Man is constantly progressing, however we have created much damage to our world through our technology. Our carbon emitting cars are accelerating global warming and ocean acidification, just to name one. As Thiele mentioned, we did not create our world, so it is not ours to destroy or save. However, we need to preserve it for future generations. This means not fulfilling our "lavish desires" to the extend we currently do. These desires create harmful and unsustainable impacts on our world. We must embrace holistic sustainability and self-sustainability to sustain future generations. If we do not want to face extinction, we must make a change in our lifestyles as a collective rather than individuals.
Delete"You're captives of a civilizational system that more or less compels you to go on destroying the world in order to live." "Yes, that's the way it seems." "So. You are captives- and you have made a captive of the world itself." (Ishmael, pg. 8)
ReplyDeleteAsk anyone that you regularly associate with if they are captive and they will likely tell you no. We think of ourselves as independent beings, with our own sense of efficacy and agency and above all, freedom. If you asked me to describe myself, "captive" is not an adjective that would even make the list, yet, when Ishmael puts it this way, it's practically undeniable that I am captive. I have almost no choice but to follow 'the system' as society dictates, and this system itself holds our Earth captive.
Do you consider yourself to be captive? Whether you intend to or not, do you think you hold the Earth captive?
"And you hear it incessantly, because every medium of propaganda, every medium of education pours it out incessantly. And hearing it incessantly, you don't listen to it. It's always there humming away in the background, so there's no need to attend to it at all." (Quinn, Pg.36)
ReplyDeleteWhen Ishmael mentioned this noise I thought of a book I read over the summer called White Noise by Don Delillo. The book explores what comes after religion; What do we humans worship and consider with awe after the merit of religion fades away? In the book the answer was television, or in today's day the computer, and the white noise is the constant humming of our technology-laden culture that never rests and that envelops our senses. I think what Ishmael is going to discuss is along a similar line, not about our obsession with technology but the fact that there is an ever present mantra, a thought that is fabricated by our culture and that we absorb simply because it saturates everything.
"The extinction of a species is not only an emotional harm. It has an impact on the resilience of ecosystems, and by extension the resilience of the planet's life support system. The loss of biodiversity threatens human welfare" (72). Each species plays a key role in the ecosystem and when biodiversity decreases in ecosystems, they become weaker and less resilient. Often times they cannot survive. Humans, however, are constantly expanding into ecosystems and human development is weakening ecosystems, and creating extinction of species. My question is how can we meet in the middle? Humans are present minded and do not realize the impacts of human development on the wild ecosystems. Expanding threatens species survival, therefore threatening humans welfare. However in order to survive at the current rate, realistically there must be some expansion.
ReplyDeleteHannah,
DeleteHere we can see the Comprehensive Problem. While decreasing biodiversity is not only detrimental for the respective ecosystems but for human welfare, we face the harsh reality that the culture of our current society is to expand no matter what the cost. I believe that that mindset can’t simply be condoned and we can’t just tsk away at our materialistic zeitgeist, but it is a mindset that we have to attempt to shift towards a more sustainable path rather than discard it altogether. A somewhat sustainable expansion, albeit difficult is better than no sustainable influence at all. My hope, as is for many others, is that thru sustainable practices, human dignity is increased and acts as a catalyst to inspire others to adopt an eco-mind.
“I couldn’t shrug it away like this, and in my innocence I thought there had to be someone out there with an unknown wisdom who could dispel my disillusionment and bewilderment: a teacher. Well, of course there wasn’t.” (Ishmael, 5)
ReplyDeleteThe reason I picked a quote from the very beginning of his story is because it reminded me of Good Life’s core reading, Hermann Hesse’s Siddhartha. Much like Siddhartha, the main character in Hesse’s spiritual novel, the main character of Ishmael encounters a spiritual pessimism after reflection and the seemingly cynical solution that there is in fact no such thing as a legitimate teacher that reveals the “secret knowledge” or enlightenment (Ishmael, 5). Quinn mentions Hesse’s work, and it came of no surprise since much of Hesse’s work deals with spiritual enlightenment and seeking a path towards knowledge and consequently peace. It seems to me that many of us seek answers in all the wrong places, and it isn’t until we learn about ourselves, that we can understand the world around us.
"You're captives of a civilized system that more or less compels you to go on destroying the world in order to live." p. 25
ReplyDeleteHow frustrating and painful to hear. As much as we all want to completely eradicate all disruption of ecosystems or destruction of natural resources, we contribute on a daily basis just by turning on the water in our sinks or driving on a highway. Bringing these facts to light is troublesome enough; however, phrasing our society as "being held captive" is excruciating. How lovely it would be to dip out on society and live in the forest, but then wouldn't that be a loss for society? Not to say I'm a great addition to society, but I want humans to truly desire change and restore the natural balance of nature, and simply leaving would feel as if I'm running and trying to escape the problem. We all see these problems with society and hopefully, we can collectively break free from captivity while remaining a huge influence on the thoughts and actions taken to preserve our home.
I agree with the idea that simply transitioning to an "off the grid" lifestyle amongst the entire world population may not necessarily be the answer to our problems. While I think that while changing our thinking habits to a "use less" mentality will put us a step in the right direction, I think the ability to engineer new technologies that will allow us to coexist with the rest of nature will be the saving grace. With the population at an astonishing 7 billion people and growing, many people would have to die if we simply stop the distribution and consumption of many resources overnight. This idea would be hard to ethically pass on to fellow humans and may prevent action all together. I feel the culture shift will come from adaptation to new types of machinery that will ultimately cause less damage or reverse damage without dramatically changing our habits on a global scale. While it would be a simpler and idealistic answer to just have people "use less" water, electricity, and oil, the idea is subjective to each individual and too many people either disbelieve our affect on this planet, or do not care enough to make the change.
DeleteI think that the world needs people like us to keep striving for harmony between man and nature. Unfortunately, if we don't do it, it probably won't happen as fast or happen at all. Obviously, it is nearly impossible for us, considering we literally are as Ishmael says "being held captive" to live each and every day in today's society, without producing a carbon footprint or making some sort of negative environmental impact. But I think if people like us can keep striving for change and keep being innovative we can facilitate a new, stronger movement to save our earth.
DeleteGiven a story to enact that puts them in accord with the world, they will live in accord with the world. But given a story to enact that puts them at odds with the world, as yours does, they will live at odds with the world. pg. 84
ReplyDeleteThis quote is important in that it emphasizes the role of socialization and how our culture views our place in the world. If we simply changed how we saw ourselves and our place on the planet we could perhaps affect how we value and interact with our environment.
Hi Xue, I totally agree with your analysis of this quote. I chose a similar quote from around the same page. The story gets really deep here and provides us readers with so much information. I was able to relate everything he says here back to our sustainability class. This quote especially raises the idea that if we change ourselves, we can change a lot of what we want to change. In another one of my classes, we talk about how important it is to change the ethics of the environment first and relate to people on their core emotional level. This change in people makes them more receptive to fixing the environment because they can closely relate to it.
DeleteColette Spieler
“Mother Culture says that if there were such a law [on how we ought to live] it wouldn’t apply to us. Why not? Because we’re so far above all the rest of that community.” …… “I have amazing news for you. Man is not alone on this planet. He is part of a community, upon which he depends absolutely.” (Ishmael pg. 99)
ReplyDelete“Mother Culture,” is the invisible force that has basically dictated our beliefs and shaped our ways of living as a society for centuries. We have never heard of “Mother Culture” because we were too worried about how Mother Nature’s unpredictability could affect us. We feared it. So, we tried to conquer it. Clearly we’re seeing the negative results of that now. “Mother Culture” tells us lies about how we as humans are superior to all other beings. Many of us believe it because we think we are the smartest of all the organisms on this planet and that all its life and creatures belong to man and that’s the way it’s supposed to be. We’ve been brainwashed to believe this to make us forget that we really don’t know how we ought to live. This law that Quinn mentions, has yet to be uncovered, but humans are flawed and destroy the paradise they try to conquer and are blinded by “Mother Culture’s” myths to see the reality of what we must do. We must come together as a community and realize we are dependent on everything else this planet has, living and nonliving, so we must take care of it. The questions is: What do you think this law of how we ought to live is? And how will we go about it?
Hey Laura!
DeleteWhile I understand your viewpoint, I think man is destroying the world not because it necessarily wants to deteriorate it but at this point, our culture really does not know better. Mother Culture is a human fabrication and as such, will just encourage us to do what gives the best result for our survival, regardless of what that means for the environment. That being said, since we make Mother Culture, we can also change it. We are lucky that now we have the internet which brings loads of information to all reaches of the planet. I believe through research and education, we can find alternate solutions to our unsustainable practices. Just as Dr. Seuss said: “Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It’s not”. We need to be that change we want to see in the culture and slowly, each individual effort will tilt Mother Culture to a steward of nature rather than it’s enemy.
Daniel Barrera
Laura,
DeleteI really enjoy the quotation you picked out and think it is quite relevant to what we are currently facing in society today. As you discussed in you response, human believe that they are the most intelligent creatures living on the planet. I believe this is false. I also believe we are most destructive than good. Countless of the global environmental issues are here due to us and what we perceive to be necessities. Depleting the last bit of a resource just so we can have it for energy or polluting a waterway just so we do not have to have that pollutant in our area. It is this mindset that humans have evolved over time that makes us believe that we are probably more revolutionized to create but our creations lead to destruction. There are species that roam the earth freely and happily without causing such problems, why can’t our society learn from them?
"No creation story is a myth to the people who tell it. It's just the story." (Ishmael, 50)
ReplyDeleteIsmael brings up a very eye-opening perspective with this quote. Essentially, he is saying that we tend to accept things as truths and will not question their validity. We don't question our truths until there is a shift in public perspective. Many of our beliefs are things we've picked up from social conditioning. It also challenges our tendencies to be close-minded and reject different perspectives that might be more aligned with reality.
Think about ideas you accept as the "truth" and ask yourself how you came to that conclusion. Was the idea instilled in you from any early age? Do you tend to block out evidence suggesting the idea may be wrong?
"Why? 'Why why why why why why?' the tiger asks itself hour after hour, day after day, year after year, as it treads its endless path behind the bars of its cage. It cannot analyze the question or elaborate on it. If you were somehow able to ask the creature, 'Why what' it would be unable to answer you." (Ishmael, 11)
ReplyDeleteAfter reading this one time I felt obligated to read it again and again. Not only does this create an image of a tiger pacing back and forth in a cage that is obviously not nearly the size of its natural habitat, but it raises the relevance of this sort of situation to humans as well. Just as the tiger questions its unnatural feeling of being encapsulated, humans often question the reason they are here on this earth. It makes one wonder if our situation as humans is really that different from the tiger at the zoo. We pace back and forth in our lives from our 9-5 job, doing what we can to make money and live a "comfortable" life, but oftentimes something just doesn't feel right. Life doesn't feel natural or wild enough. My question to you is rather personal. Do you ever feel as if you're cooped up in life- unable to escape the cage that our daily routine often serves as?
I really enjoyed your quote as well as your interpretation of the Tiger's pacing. As for replying to your question: I more often than not question my role on earth (when allowed the free time to reflect on it). I think humans get so caught up in menial tasks like fixing an Excel file or worrying about lunch for tomorrow that we fail to examine our "cage". In not giving thought to our greater purpose, it is easy to forget that we ARE like the Tiger or aloe plant (an entity that has no surface level greater purpose) that is making its journey through life. Since we do not acknowledge our similarity to all other life (all of which in my opinion is relatively caged), humans feel superior; leading to ignorance and unsustainable acts.
DeleteIn the Ishmael reading by Daniel Quinn, I was most struck by this sentiment on humanity:
ReplyDelete"Man is the end product of creation. Man is the creature for whom all the rest was made: this world, this solar system, this galaxy, the universe itself". (57)
This quote woke me of my personal fixed path of thought. In reading this I thought to myself "what if the complexity of life did end in jelly fish or snails?". I thinki it is important for humans to look outside of our own species and consider that that liverwort may be making as much impact on the world as I am. In changing our thinking to include the importance of organisms outside ourselves, we can better understand sustainability in an ecological sense. While human dignity is at the center of Dr. Chandler's wheel of sustainability, I think humans need to realized that there are reasons to respect the earth that can originate outside of humans centered thought processes.
^ posted under the wrong google account. I am Cassondra Newman. Sorry!
DeleteHumans are species that act out of self-interest. In order for a human to justify doing a task outside of their species, there must be an incentive behind it. Humans that seek monetary incentives are just doing what is necessary to survive. However, humans that put others species first for the good of that species is a selfless individual; someone that understands how many species around the globe rely on each other. By respecting the Earth and the other species that live here, we can do our part to make the world a more enjoyable place to live.
Delete“The Takers regard the world as a sort of human life-support system, as a machine designed to produce and sustain human life.” Pg. 59
ReplyDeleteI find it interesting that, assuming this is the thinking behind human behavior and unstainable culture, humans do not consider the idea that this “machine” needs to be maintained. Sure, the Earth has what humans need to survive and thrive, but I cannot think of an example of a machine that was created and then could be used and overused extensively and endlessly and never needed to be taken care of or maintained or replaced. Wouldn’t it make sense for us to make sure we took care of our machine, and took measures to ensure that we didn’t use it too much or too fast, in order for it to work and continue helping us for as long as possible?
You make a very good point. There are no machines that will continue to function endlessly without attention and maintenance. The earth cannot continue supplying humans with resources and other goods forever without the same attention and awareness. I think this is the point that the author Daniel Quinn was trying to make. The Taker system of viewing the earth as a life support machine is false because it will not work over time. We must abandon our current consumptive and destructive trajectory if we want to sustain ourselves on the planet. To this end, there must be another story that explains the appropriate way to live along with the earth and our fellow creatures. I am hoping that the book eventually reveals this. And as long as we do use the earth as a machine such as in current times, we should definitely make the effort to take care of our machine, so that it will continue to help us for as long as possible.
Delete“Five severed fingers do not make a hand” (Ishmael, page 12)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me in the sense that in order for sustainability to make an impact in society it must be fully connected and integrated in not only its self but also the mesh of society. Having sustainability programs and technology on its own is useless (much like severed fingers) if they are not a part of something bigger (the hand).
I remember reading this quote and thinking it was really powerful as well. This quote applies to many concepts, but especially sustainability. As Peter Senge was mentioning from the first weeks reading materials, we do not need a couple of the smartest people to come together to fix the problem, but a unity amongst everyone, a smarter and more educated middle. I think this speaks to this quote very well. It also applies to what another guest lecturer was talking about which was reaching out to the "caring middle" (the people who would care if they knew, but unfortunately do not). By uniting as many people as possible towards one goal and working in unison, becoming "the hand", holistic sustainability is attainable.
Delete"The revolt hadn't been put down, it had just dwindled away into a fashion statement" - Ishmael, p5
ReplyDeleteThat's such a powerful quote since it encapsulates how a lot of people (myself included) try and "change" the world. I feel like in these times, we really tend to boil down these extremely important conversations into simple trendy statements that feel good to say but don't mean we necessarily are engaged in bringing about change. It struck me to realize that just because I'm aware and to a certain degree discuss certain problems, I'm not necessarily taking action within my own life to say, live a more sustainable lifestyle. This quote reminds us to do more than just speak on a problem, but rather mobilize and take action in what these "trendy" statements are trying to achieve. Do you happen to be guilty of doing this? How can we evade a boiling down big problems into fashionable statements?
Daniel Barrera
(If this sounds like an epiphany, it might be because it is)
I agree with your statement and highlighted this quote as well. Not many people have been to quick to shoot down the notion that our world is being polluted, damaged, and slowly turning to scorch. However, the power of the movement that we must "go green," has not turned into the actions and solutions we hoped that it would bring, but just stayed as a phrase. People only recycle to relieve their ecological guilt and in most cases is will never go farther then that because people don't want to change their daily lives to help a generation that's thousands of years away. Trendy ways of recycling have stuck for the most part, but even then its a modicum of the change we need. it a great place to start, a terrible place to end.
Delete“Naturally you wouldn’t consider it a myth. No creation story is a myth to the people who tell it. It’s just the story.” (Ch. 3 Pg. 28 of PDF)
ReplyDelete“The story of creation as it’s told in your culture.” Ch. 3 Pg. 28 of PDF)
This week, I could not just pick one quotation from the novel Ishmael. I read this in high school without thinking twice about it and now reading it again, I find the novel quite insightful. But anyway, these two quotations above connect in the way a culture, one, believes in what it believes, and two, how it the culture’s society works. The story of creation is described through the cultures’ religion and the story lives on throughout generation of that particular society. It does not change. That can result into an issue in this current time of change or, in the science outlook of it, can cause problems when deciding how an environmental event was caused. We cannot change the way individuals see the world and the world’s beginning. So how do we get along on this global aspect? We don’t. But in order to recover what we have left in this world, we must figure this out in a peaceful way. A way for this to possibly occur is to respect the story of creation of each culture yet also find other outlooks on life. Because, in reality, it is all just a story.
"Given a story to enact which the world is a foe to be conquered, they will conquer it like a foe, and one day, inevitably, their foe will lie bleeding to death at their feet, as the world is now" (Ishmael, 84).
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because not only does it relate to the class, but it also highlights the instincts of man and the way societal mentality can really change behavior. This conversation alludes to the fact that people will enact the story they are given without second thought. As a society, we will not work together to try and change the path we have been given and make a better story. As as of now, people are enacting a story that damages the world around them for their selfish needs, which is ultimately the downfall to a sustainable practice. This quote highlights the fact that people will pursue this story till their foe is bleeding at their feet and unfortunately, in this story the foe is our world.
"Nobody's out to save the world, because nobody gives a damn about the world, that was just a bunch of goofy kids talking. Get a job, make some money, work till you're sixty, then move to Florida and die." Ishmael Chapter 1 Pg. 5 - The reason I chose this quote to analyze in the context of holistic sustainability is because the author makes a very interesting point of how people, even more so environmental activists, have essentially become complacent with just the fact that people know there is a problem but "pass it off with a cynical grin," when we ask where the solution is. The answer to that usually is, "what did you expect." Society has become extremely comfortable with the notion of making enough wealth to support yourself, retire, and die. No where along those lines can you help the world progress or advance...you merely go through the motions living selfishly for yourself forgetting that the world stays stagnant without our constant improvement. The reason we see so many environmental issues today is because humans have become tired of improving and instead just want to get by without giving a hoot about the next generation.
ReplyDeleteThis quote stuck out to me as well because I think it does a good job of capturing the “American Dream” which also happens to be causing major problems for the environment and future generations. As you said, many people are content with following the life structure “Get a job, make some money, work till you're sixty, then move to Florida and die.” We are so caught up with doing what everyone else does that many of us forget that there are more important things to worry about. We have lost our care for others beside ourselves and are not considering what the consequences will be.
DeleteThis was a very good quote and I think it says a lot about what people do with their lives and future nowadays. No longer do we wish for a great future and living long, but have come to terms with reality and how short our cycle of life can be. And I also agree with Kristy's comment and how it relates to the American Dream that most people have. I think that there is a lot more to live than job, money, retire, die but that is my personal opinion. I guess society today is just more of playing the cards of life your dealt with instead of trying to do bigger and better things. I think people should be tying to do what is not expected of them to do in order to make a difference.
DeleteWell proposed and great quote. We do run into a problem when talking about the fundamental definition of sustainability. The problem addressed is that people are selfish and our current cultural norms lead to us living our lives for ourselves. I agree with your view that there is more to life. You have to live for yourself in a sustainable way. Is what i'm doing what i want to do but also good for the community around me? I think we all also have a biased view since we already live in Florida too. Whats' so amazing about it.. there's just a bunch of old people, and some hip places to spend your time! Growing up in the sunshine state has also made me cherish the environment around and really see the changes we have inflicted.
Delete“…he just yearned for there to be someone in the world…someone with a secret knowledge beyond his own. In fact, of course, there is no secret knowledge; no one knows anything that can’t be found on a shelf in the public library.” (Ishmael, pg. 5)
ReplyDeleteThis quote really stuck out to me in that often we think of knowledge in terms of someone imparting it to us, when in reality we should be working to acquire it ourselves. This relates back to human dignity, with our right to education. However, it seems many people take education for granted, and is now sometimes seen by society as something that only happens within the walls of a classroom. We have so many great resources available to us for free, but generally do not take advantage of them. Is it a mindset or just laziness that keeps people from being passionate about lifelong learning?
"With man gone, will there be hope for gorilla? (Quinn, p.9)" Ishmael is a fictional story about a man and a gorilla's interactions and understanding of one another. This quote, which is introduced when the human character finds a solitary gorilla left in his cage. The question allows the reader to imagine where the story is going. I think the author is trying to make a connection in sustainability by referencing the animals which have no natural caretaker. Gorilla's and other primates have been able to live on their own, with no human interactions, for thousands of years before humans. However, once an animal has been caged, it is common that the animal losses it natural drive; it becomes reliant on humans. In a sustainable world, the forest, ocean, and atmosphere are the gorilla's of society, if humans continue to deplete those resources, human population will suffer. Once humanity has disappeared, nobody will be able to salvage what is left, it will simply be left to nature. By allowing nature to play more of a role in our society, we may be able to slow the consumption of forest and ocean related resources before it is too late.
ReplyDelete“Man’s destiny was to conquer and rule the world...He hasn’t quite made it, and it looks as though this may be his undoing.” (Ishmael 80)
ReplyDeleteSo far, I'm really enjoying Ishmael. I think it's offering great insight. Usually books are hard for me to read and relate to. I especially enjoy this quote because I was able to relate it back to everything we learn in class. We, as humans, have the opportunity to conquer the world and do great things, however, our actions will be our demise. If we keep doing what we are doing (the environment specifically)), we are taking opportunities away from ourselves that lead us to greatness.
Colette Spieler
“And yet you destroy it, each of you. Each of you contributes daily to the destruction of the world.” (Ishmael, pg. 25)
ReplyDeleteI found this quote to hold a lot of weight, as it is something I have never considered previously. Ishmael is discussing the way in which we live in a civilization that requires us to destroy the world in order to continue on with our lives each day. Do you think it is possible to live a life that does not require the destruction of the earth?
Kristy, I find the quote that you chose to be very interesting. It does hold a significant amount of weight. As a society, we often find ourselves blaming others for our own careless mistakes. I think the first step towards weening away from the constant destruction of the Earth is to first point to yourself and realize we are all to blame. We are taught to live life a certain way, and in turn we take advantage of what we are so graciously provided around us because it's so normal. It's comfortable. We must reach out of our comfort zones. And we must also have an open mind and open heart when it comes to changing the way we live.
DeleteJaneshly Algarin
I think this quote does a really good job addressing the guilt that most of us feel when we are not living completely sustainably. Whenever I do not use reusable cups for coffee or reusable bags for groceries I feel guilty for being part of the destruction of the world.
DeleteI do however believe there is a way to live on earth without destroying it. It is all about living with intention and thinking about your actions. So maybe we all have smaller families, avoid wasting food and only use responsible products.
Indigenous people lived and worked on the land, but they also did a great job of giving back and being responsible with the earth.If we lived life more like this then we wouldn't be destroying the world. We would be borrowing it for a little while and then giving back what we have taken out.
“You’re captives of a civilizational system that more or less compels you to go on destroying the world in order to live.”Ch1 part 6 pg 15
ReplyDeleteThis quote interests me because Ishmael is doing something so unique as to teach the dangers of captivity. Similar to the Aryans boys who knew nothing more than what they were being taught, yet felt as though something is wrong, our human race as a whole should be feeling the same way. We are captives to the ways we’ve been taught for ages, and because of that, we believe that the way we live is right. Just because something has been happening for a long time, doesn’t mean its okay. Just as mentioned in Chapter 6, we believe we are the masters of flight, yet we are ignorant towards the laws of life, which will ultimately lead to our downfall.
We are stuck living a certain way, because we haven’t looked beyond our lives to see what we have been doing at fault. Mankind is not the center of the universe. We are not at the climax of the evolution of the Earth. We are just the Earth’s inhabitants, and we are just as significant as everything else living on this planet. The entire universe should not just be considered a subject of our manipulation.
“Perhaps the flaw in man is exactly this: that he doesn’t know how he ought to live.” (p. 89)
ReplyDeleteThis seems to be a clear connection, man is destroying the earth because he does not know how he ought to live. The following pages in the book explain that the Takers have looked to prophets to try to learn how they should be living. I was wondering if there are different ways to find this knowledge. DO we find out more by looking into anthropology and the studies of nature?
That is a really interesting point that you bring up, studying anthropology as a way to understand how we've come to our current situation. I took anthropology of sustainability and that class opened my eyes to things that I never would have even considered when thinking about sustainability, particularly with reference to biodiversity. I know biodiversity is important, but I didn't know that it has a direct correlation to the number of languages spoken in the region, the amount of words used to describe environments, and the culture of the community. Culture is incredibly important, and I thought it was really interesting how the narrator wrote his philosophy paper and talked about how the Aryan race would destroy all evidence of prior races, yet it felt like a lie to one of the characters. I personally believe that humans have acquired an abundance of knowledge that could be incredibly useful today, but it has been destroyed out of fear of the powerful losing their control within our society.
Delete"And in spite of all the mastery we’ve attained, we don’t have enough mastery to stop devastating the world – or to repair the devastation we’ve already wrought."(page 82)
ReplyDeleteI feel that this is a rather pessimistic quote, to me it implies a sort of doom that has been inevitably reached on earth. I feel that with technology moving forward faster than ever before, we still have the ability to make a change. Do you think that we have reached the point of no return? What are some ways that we can reverse the damage other than simply lowering our consumption?
I feel this quote is as ironic as it is true. We have made such advancements in technology and processes, but we often forget that the earth, the source of all our resources, must be taken to account as well. Although I believe that what damage we have already caused is done and irreversible (i.e. ozone layer, desertification, etc.), this is by no means gives us a reason to give up. Other than simply lowering consumption, we can purchase goods that are marked with fair trade and humane working conditions, shop for food and other goods locally (i.e. farmer’s markets), walk, bike, or take public transport to events that you don’t necessarily need a car, and eating vegetarian once a week.
Delete"'What's the name of this community, of which man is only one member?'
ReplyDelete'I don't know.'
'What does Mother Culture say?'
I closed my eyes and listener for a while. 'Mother Culture says that if there were such a law it wouldn't apply to us.'
'Why not?'
'Because we're so far above the rest of that community.'" - Ishmael pg. 99
Here Ishmael is addressing the idea that nearly every person in our culture has their entire life. The idea that we are the supreme rulers of the earth and can do just about whatever we want to it without consequence. It is the public's trend to fly blindly into the night, not preparing for the outcomes of our actions and also not changing our approach to living. Ishmael sheds an illuminating light on what it would be like to see our global society from an outside party, and in my opinion holds a lot truth within its pages. How is it possible that this idea has flourished among people. What is the stigma that keeps others from truly seeing the world as it truly is? I place of fragile beauty and a place of life that has the possibility to be destroyed by our own hands.
I think the problem is the narrative (given by Mother Culture, or whatever name you want to give western cultural influence) is that we are not animals – we are something more. I’m definitely persuaded by the argument that Christianity specifically gives the idea that humans were made as “careTAKERs” for the world; it is intrinsic to our ontology. When someone (or something) tells you you’re better than everything else, it is comforting. To think that we are just another part of a community of organisms that lives for a few millennia and dies out, to some is to think less of ourselves.
Delete“And where were these pupils, who I had predicted would be present by the hundreds?” (Ishmael, 4)
ReplyDeleteI identify heavily with the narrator when he thinks this about meeting his teacher for the first time. When I took my first sustainability class I thought about how incredibly fascinating and important this topic is for our society, yet very few people were actually there in the class. It’s like the narrator’s philosophy paper and how if everybody knew the truth, the world would change. I think that if everybody knew the truth, if they had their eyes open to our Problem, then things would change. Unfortunately, I think the current situation is that only some of us are willing to educate ourselves, but even still we haven’t learned the truth we just understand we’ve been lied to. Much like what was written in the World’s Watch textbook, advertising (or deception) has influenced our world in one of the most fundamental ways. No longer do corporations tell us the truth, but they try to deceive us. This is exactly like the Aryan philosophy story that the narrator talks about, but instead this is real life and we are victimizing ourselves through our own actions. I think it is our job to find out the truth rather than just complain about the lies we’ve been told.
"The earth.. it is the birthplace and home of man, and that's its meaning. The Takers regard the world as sort of human life-support system, as a machine designed to produce and sustain human life." (Ishmael Ch 3 part 5 p 59).
ReplyDeleteThis quote rings true to this day completely. Most humans in today's society don't think of the earth as anything other than the place where we live and where we get our resources from.; it is truly so much more than that though. Humans believe that they are above everything else on the earth; which obviously isn't true. I think that this quote is an important reminder than man must step off of his high pedestal and remember that we too share this earth with other plants and animals and we must use what we have on this earth with care and caution. We must remember that this "earth" that we simply live on, and all of its organisms, keep us alive each and every day. It is therefore our right and duty to treat this earth with respect and use everything that it gives us responsibly and efficiently.
"Each of you contributes daily to the destruction of the world.” Ishmael Pg. 25
ReplyDeleteThis quote poses the future dangers that we are creating for our own society with our everyday actions. We make our decisions and choose based on what we want in the present but need to understand that there is a future for us, for our children, and for the rest of society. Additionally, I think we would prefer to make that future great, more sustainable, and a better place to live. I think Ishmael is trying to tell us that everyday when we wake up, we can choose to make that future a possibility or we can live like we do not care about anything else besides ourselves. What effect does personal choice have among the future of society?
Personal choice seems to be the basis of society. Choice in our day to day lives makes the world go round but also slowly destructs it around us. I enjoyed how you mentioned that you think we as people would like to make the future great, which I full heartedly agree. The sad truth is there are far too many people thinking only about the lives they live day to day and not the future or future generations to come. It has been said the Native Americans lived life in a way that they were constantly thinking how they were going to affect up to seven generations after them. That truly astounds me when there are people who just consume as much as they can without a second thought about their carbon footprint or their mark on the world. We need to change the way these people are thinking and push them out of their comfort zones in order to make a change and save our planet.
DeleteI do not believe there is anything innately wrong about personal choice, if we use it in the right way. Personal choice is one of the factors of our evolutionary cycle that is unavoidable. However, with the concentration of how us humans should become sustainable creatures, I do believe that there has to be some sort of balance between our personal choices and choices that are better for the future generation and the environment. There are some days that are meant for relaxation, and other days we should give back to our community and volunteer. This constitutes a healthy balance between the two factors.
Delete"I listened to the echo of this strange admonishment as of it were a fragment of music I couldn't quite identify. I looked at the chair and wondered: Would it be best to sit down and be still? And if so, why? The answer came readily enough: Because if you are still, then you will be better able to hear. Yes, I thought, that is undeniably so." (P.9)
ReplyDeleteI believe this statement relates to our need to stop and admire our natural preserves, as well as nature in general. Without our own admiration, we wouldn't be able to properly send the message of saving this earth, as well as giving ourselves our own purpose to continue with our sustainable endeavors. Sustainability involves the action of preservation. However, it also involves reflection and purpose, and we cannot achieve these perspectives without sitting still.
I really like how you interpreted this quote, and I absolutely concur with your statement. Nowadays, everything is so hectic as everyone is always up and running, and it is quite rare for an individual to cease this busy schedule to reflect and contemplate on our actions. As this class consistently emphasizes, every actions directed to be more sustainable is derived from human dignity. This requires a time to reflect on the wrongdoings in the world for us to have that desire, or human dignity, to change, prevent, or improve to be sustainable. Like you said, sustainability involves reflection and purpose.
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Delete“You’re captives of a civilizational system that more or less compels you to go on destroying the world in order to live.” Ishmael ch 6 (Kindle)
ReplyDeleteAs a person whose family loves to travel and as a person who studied abroad in Australia with a focus on sustainability studies, I can see an incredibly stark contrast between Americans and the rest of the world when it comes to being responsible for taking care of the earth. The US is the only country that sees global warming as something “to believe in,” whereas other countries see it as a communal mentality and behavioral shift. The quote reminds me of the short film The Story of Stuff, in which the narrator mentions how after the industrial revolution, businesses have ingrained into consumers’ minds that above all, we are just that: consumers. After something breaks, we don’t need to make it last by fixing it. Advertising and society tells us we need to buy a new one, regardless of the cost to our wallets and the environment.
"The people of your culture made it a premise -- took it as a premise ... Think of the consequences of taking that as your premise ... If the world was made for us, then it belongs to us and we can do what we damn well please with it." (Ishmael, p.61). I really appreciate this point that the book makes. Perhaps becuase it is an idea that had not occured to me until I read this book. The human race acts quite entitled when you really think about it. Ishmael explains here how humans have completely created this sense of entiltlement which allows them to exploit the Earth without any sense of guilt. What an eye-opening concept.
ReplyDelete"Perhaps the flaw in man is exactly this: that he doesn't know how he ought to live." (Ismael 89) do you agree? Does mankind just not know that they should be living sustainably? is this an issue of education?
ReplyDeleteThis quote is very relevant in today’s world. Mankind cannot necessarily be blocked into one singular category in this case, but the simple answer as to whether mankind knows to be living sustainably is yes. Most all people know that they are destroying the earth at an alarming rate, but do almost nothing to change their daily routines. They still drive cars everywhere, use materials that are not recyclable, and don’t recycle anyways. Mankind, at least the educated part of it, should understand that knowing they are destroying the earth and not doing anything about it isn’t helping anything. Education on preserving what is left of the world needs to go beyond simply showing people what is happening and explaining ways to help slow down the destruction of it. The only way people are going to actively make a difference in their lives to help the earth is if they were forced in some way. This is where governments need to step in and require people to live as sustainably as possible. This is the only way to guarantee that some of the human population will change their ways.
DeleteI agree with the concept that men does not inherently know how he should be living. However, I do not think this is a flaw, due to the fact that we have no control over the matter. Almost everything in the world is made/born with a purpose. If they are not, then they are not capable of ponder their role in the universe. Humans however, are such a species that come into the world not knowing what they are to do to live a fulfilling life, but they do wondering and seek to find out. Therefore, it cannot be a flaw if they do not have control over their nature. However, at this point in time with all of the information available about our planet and sustainable methods, we definitely should be living more green. So perhaps the flaw of mean if not that he doesn't know how he should live, but that he ignores suggestions and research on how he ought to be.
Delete“If gorillas were capable of such an expression, they would tell you that their family is like a hand, of which they are the fingers. They are fully aware of being a family but are very little aware of being individuals. Here in the Zoo there were other gorillas- but there was no family. Five severed fingers do not make a hand.” (page 12)
ReplyDeleteReading this passage has really made me think about our separation from the rest of the world and each other. We have looked past all of life's interconnection and have taken animals from their natural habitats and ways of life and imposed upon them our unnatural way of thinking that is money oriented. We are even forcing each other to act unnaturally, by instituting competition with other cultures, people, and even our own planet. I thought this metaphor beautifully explained how we must work together to function. Five severed fingers are useless. What are more examples of how society is disconnected and how can we make those examples able to function better?
It’s sad that humans, with so much in common, feel the need to divide ourselves so much. Not only have we completely separated ourselves from nature (the Takers) but our own creation of borders and countries have further divided us between our own species. We violently hurt one another and think of one country as better than another when we are all one species and we are one planet. We cannot continue to live as severed fingers for individual wants will not further benefit the world as whole. We have been so blinded by the hum of our mother culture that we cannot ourselves realize that our individual gain will be for nothing if we destroy everything that brought us life.
Delete“Once you learn to discern the voice of mother culture humming in the background telling her story over and over again to the people of your culture, you’ll never stop being conscious of it.” pg. 37 Ishmael by Daniel Quinn
ReplyDeleteI feel like this quote captures what the first six chapters is trying to establish, especially in the later chapters we read. Ishmael is trying to help the narrator discover that his human culture (the Takers) are just going along to the hum of mother culture, that they have created a place for themselves in the world and are fine with just going along with it. What most regular people in today’s society do not realize or want to realize is that we are not in tune with the rest of the world but are lost in our own hum. Another thing that stood out to me is the analogy to someone trying to fly for the first time. Our culture is like the person who jumps off the cliff with his or her flying device and are in free fall. They feel like they are flying but are destined to crash because they do not understand the idea of aeronautics. They see the crashed flying devices before them but since all is going good at the moment, they feel that they will succeed when they have no proof that they will. This is a perfect fit into our society today. We see the mistakes of the past but we feel so fine in our present ways that we do not anticipate that there will be crash. This is for the most part how humans have lived so far but luckily many people are starting to see the end result if we continue on our flight plan. When we are so caught up in the hum of mother culture, we cannot break away to listen to the rest of the noise of the world, which is crucial for us if we want to live holistically. To work with the idea that we encompass all that we have on Earth, we must forget about the hum and realize that this Earth wasn’t created so that we could destroy it. Will there ever be a way to distract our culture from the hum of mother culture before it’s too late to go back?
"To step out of this story is to fall off the edge of the world. There's no way out of it except through death." (Ishmael, 37) This quote is extremely dark, but in some ways true. The story of which Ishmael speaks is the one of how things came to be, and the only way out of it is by dying. People seem to think this applies to any story, whether its the story of how people began driving cars or packaging their food with plastic. Do you think changing things like these would cause the course of the story to change? if so, how?
ReplyDelete"He was like me--.. someone with a secret knowledge and a wisdom beyond his own... there is no secret knowledge; no one knows anything that can't be found on a shelf in the public library. But I didn't know that then" (Ishmael, 5)
ReplyDeleteEarly on, the narrator is frustrated because for years he has been searching for a deeper meaning in life, and he finds out that there is a teacher looking to advise a student in such a philosophical matter. As we come to find out, Ishmael teaches the narrator many things, but not things that he did not already know. The difference was in perspective and arrangement of how he thought about these ideas, not the information itself. Such a view can also be taken on our society and sustainability. People of Earth know just how much damage they are doing to the planet, and even some way to fix it, we just need to put these ideas into action and think about them in different ways.
“Man is not alone on this planet. He is part of a community, upon which he depends absolutely.” (Ishmael pg. 99)
ReplyDeleteI chose this line specifically because of the idea that man is alone in the universe. There is always that extraterrestrial debate that people have, on whether there is life on other planets. What people sometimes overlook is that there is life on this planet! Humans overlook the community they live in, although without it our whole race would die. It’s fascinating how for granted we take the very animals that we live with. I believe the reason this happens is because we cannot communicate with them, so we presume them inferior and almost worthless. For example, think about how badly humans of different languages treat each other. Without communication, we cannot justify each other’s worth and think of each other as equals. Instead, you consider yourself superior, since they cannot understand you. Putting this into context, we consider ourselves completely superior to the animals who in no way, shape, or form can we communicate with. This is unfortunate, as instead of considering ourselves as part of a community in harmony, we see ourselves as a superior species running the ecosystem like a profitable machine. My question is, would being able to communicate verbally with animals (theoretically) make humans more likely to respect them and treat them better? I strongly believe so.
The concept of Mother Culture was fascinating to me. Quinn has us waiting on the edge of our seat for pages and pages, waiting to hear about the secrets of our culture's mythos, and when he reveals them, they're painfully obvious. From p 99: "Mother Culture says that if there were such a law it wouldn't apply to us. Because we're so far above the rest of the community." The entitlement of the human race has been a plague, and Ishmael's way of addressing it so bluntly, calling it the culture of the Takers, was not only funny but striking. We are so conditioned to believe our societal habits are okay, they're unquestionable and unchangable, that there is nothing that can be done to fix "the world," to fix the mindsets of the individuals responsible for the travesties decimating our earth. We become so complacent that we cancel out the buzzing drone of the pain and devastation of our world. I love that Ishmael's (extremely didactic) teaching gives way to opening the eyes of someone so long closed into their beliefs of despair and hopelessness. I felt a bit special, reading the line about the narrator wishing he'd found Ishmael at seventeen, because I have the luxury of doing exactly that.
ReplyDeleteThis quote is very blunt and straight forward like much of the book. Realizing that that humans do see them selves as separate from the our global community. Many people in our society overlook "the world". Like you said their mindset is very lost. There is no responsibility being taken by the" takers", They never consider and respond to what their actions are causing. In our current culture we do become complacent and really overlook the things problems of our world. Our mother culture needs to change. Our current view of the world and its assumption that it will forever provide and be resilient for us is plagued. Our planet is our home and we need to take care of it!
Delete"You’re captives of a civilizational system that more or less compels you to go on destroying the world in order to live.” (p.15 Ishmael)
ReplyDeleteThis quote stood out to me because of how blatantly it speaks to this often unspoken truth. To survive in the society and culture that we have been raised in we must destroy the world we live in, in all aspects. This includes all five facets of sustainability: human dignity, water, food, energy, and commerce. We are fighting to stay afloat in a society that creates a floating pile of garbage. We would be floating amongst the rest of the trash. We need to not be afraid to go against society and preserve the earth for generations to come. Although we might make it through our lifetimes with the luxuries of using our natural resource, they may not be able to have that same kind of existence for out grandchildren. What do you think is the first step to effecting change?
"man lived harmlessly on this earth for some three million years, but the takers have brought the whole thing to the point of collapse in only five hundred generations.." Ishmeal pg 119
ReplyDeleteThis quote questions if we are being the right kind of humans to sustain ourselves in this world. The way we are living may be what we want but it's not what we need to do to keep ourselves alive. our social needs are becoming overwhelming and are leading to disaster. Although we have been productive we have not been doing it in the right way. As a human society everything we do needs to be more sustainable in order to have things for our generations to come. We evolved a problem in the nature of some humans that overlooks what we need for the future and instead lives for the here and now. We are one big human family and it can not be one single person's problem to fix our ways. we all need to come together as one and realize they way we are living is not healthy or sustainable. Ishmeal is coming to understand the problem out planet is facing and is understanding the situation at hand, they best thing about the narrators and ishmeal is they seem to throw ideas off each other and look at things differently. Why is it that our society today doesn't address this problem! we really need to be the bigger people and work together for the betterment of humans in the future.
I def like this quote. We do tend to take a lot and not live the right way to compromise with other species. I agree with you that we overlook problems that will occur in the future and focus too much on things here and now. We do need to all come together and stand to make an impact. One person can start spread word, but it takes everyone to actually put it into action. As they said, one bad apple can spoil a whole basket. I feel that our society doesn't address this issue because they aren't focused on the time when they won't be here, but only on the time they will be. We don't think about our future generations and are just pretty selfish .
Delete"Five severed fingers do not make a hand" (p. 12 Ishmael)
ReplyDeleteThis simple quote seems like an obvious statement, but in sustainability this quote digs deeper than what the surface may tell. In the context of Ishmael, this quote explains that one thing that an animal realizes is its bond with its family. Removing an animal from that family to put it in a zoo or anywhere in captive, even though that animal may be surrounded by the same species to itself, it will lose that essential identity of that animal. Living in a world where everything and everyone has a set environment for oneself, a specific dwelling where one is able to flourish, the world becomes unbalanced when something is forced out of its natural habitats. Like the fresnel lens discussed earlier in the semester, if even one glass or lens is removed, the whole system is nonfunctional. Everything is connected in this world, so removing an animal, for example, out of its natural habitats can tip the balance and eventually the world becomes nonfunctional as well. This quote really accentuated this that everything is connected and has a set place where one needs to be located and flourish in.
"WITH MAN GONE, WILL THERE BE HOPE FOR GORILLA?" (Ishmael, pg. 9)
ReplyDeleteTo me this quote made me stop and think. People say that humans are the most powerful species on Earth. We hold an impact on so many plants and animal's lives. If we left, what would happen to the Gorillas and well, every other species? Personally, I think they would thrive and balance out in nature again. What would happen though to Human's if other species weren't here? As humans, we learn from others...and not just other humans, but other species. Yes, we are the "top" of the species, but without other species, would we really even be at the top?
“Man is not alone on this planet. He is part of a community, upon which he depends absolutely.” (Ishmael pg. 99). I read Ishmael when I was in high school, and this book is as good now, as when I read it the first time. We like to think of ourselves as autonomous individuals, and act according to what is best for us. I think Ishmael is right to put out that we're members of a community, and need to adjust our behavior to fit that. How do we foster a different ethic in regards to decision making that includes how are decisions affect others?
ReplyDelete“Man’s destiny was to conquer and rule the world...” (Ishmael, page 80)
ReplyDeleteI think this is quite interesting because many today don't believe that mans destiny is to do anything but treat the world with respect. More and more often people change their views to a more holistic view of the world. we don't want to conquer all as much as live together and share the world.
I agree that perhaps this statement doesn't quite hold as much value as it did in 1992, when Daniel Quinn wrote this novel. Knowing when this novel was written, I can understand how this quote might have rang truer at the time. In the 1990s, society was not as focused on a holistic view of the world as it is now - now, progressives strive to view the world from the most wholesome view possible. I think this quote is true in the context of when the book was written, but it probably doesn't hold as much value today among progressives.
Delete"The takers regard the world as a sort of human life-support system, as a machine designed to produce and sustain human life." In today's age we can anything we want and exactly how we want it`. whether it be shoes through Nike ID, a sub from subway, or a college class that is online and catered to our time and availability. People assume the world was created to cater to us as humans, but this planet was here before were and will continue to exist after us. We are not at the top of the food chain like we all think our selves to be. If we thought of planet earth and as a superior and not our own creation we wouldn't be in the pollution and resource crisis we are in now.
ReplyDelete"'You’re captives of a civilizational system that more or less compels you to go on destroying the world in order to live.'"
ReplyDeleteI think this quote, spoken by Ishmael to the narrator, summarizes the main problem in the context of sustainability. In essence, it implies that our society prioritizes progress over all other facets of our community, including the environment. I pose this question to my peers: Do you agree with this implication? And if so, do you think it is possible for us to break this cycle of progress-over-all?